Page 6 of 16 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast
Results 101 to 120 of 305
  1. #101
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    1,944

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    The world would be a much healthier place if we weren't so intent on killing everything... weeds, insects, fungus...
    Killing everything ........sure, that' crazy.. Obliterating other things, aids, small pox, malaria, mites.......those need killing... Michael we all know you don't have mites, but you are indeed among the minority worldwide. Do you think your could replicate your success worldwide? If you had to treat to save your bees, what would you use?
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for Oxalic Acid Vaporizers

  2. #102
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,379

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    >we all know you don't have mites

    But I do have mites. Mites are endemic.

    >but you are indeed among the minority worldwide.

    I don't think I am a minority of people doing natural beekeeping with natural comb and succeeding against mites. I may be a minority of beekeepers in general.

    >Do you think your could replicate your success worldwide?

    I only have bees in my climate, and certainly all beekeeping is local, but there are people all over the world doing treatment free successfully.

    >If you had to treat to save your bees, what would you use?

    What if there were no rhetorical questions?

    I was desperate enough to treat at one time and lost my bees anyway. Treating was not an improvement. It certainly was not a solution. I don't have to treat.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    1,944

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >If you had to treat to save your bees, what would you use?

    What if there were no rhetorical questions?

    I was desperate enough to treat at one time and lost my bees anyway. Treating was not an improvement. It certainly was not a solution. I don't have to treat.
    Michael, that's not an answer that inquiring minds want to hear (at least mine anyway). I'm not trying to be contrary, but I am putting you on the spot because I'd really like to know. If you had no other recourse to save your bees from mites other than to treat, what would you use?
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for Oxalic Acid Vaporizers

  4. #104
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    2,835

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    I see a very difficult question being asked here. And this is why I see it difficult. The majority assume that treatment is an answer. they also assuem that others see treatment as an answer. But what if you you do not? As Michael said. he has tried it and it did not help. So even if worse came to worse and he was loosing all his bees. Why would he then resort to something he believes and has experienced does not help?

    I will ask a different queston of you Michael. If you found your bees suddenly collapsing. Do you have any other courses of action you would take to prevent it? I also realize that question is difficult given you cannot address a hypothetical ailment. So the real question is, Do you believe you are doing the best you can in every way. and if it fails you are up against creating some entirely new solutions?
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  5. #105
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,379

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    >If you had no other recourse to save your bees from mites other than to treat, what would you use?

    There is no logical point in answering a hypothetical question. It is merely hypothetical.

    >I will ask a different queston of you Michael. If you found your bees suddenly collapsing. Do you have any other courses of action you would take to prevent it?

    Hypothetical again for the most part. They were collapsing, and I did try treating and I decided it was worse than not treating and treating was not the solution to the problem.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  6. #106
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Grosse Ile, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,818

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    I don't think Mike Bush is being elusive in not giving the answer to the hypothetical question, I just think he feels confident that what he is currently doing is "the" answer to his previous mite problems, and that unless mites somehow eventually evolve to the extent that they can reproduce much better in small cells, there will be no need to re-evaluate using a treatment. I guess you can say that he intends on crossing that bridge when and if he comes to it.

  7. #107
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    1,944

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmgi View Post
    I don't think Mike Bush is being elusive in not giving the answer to the hypothetical question ... I guess you can say that he intends on crossing that bridge when and if he comes to it.
    We all answer hypothetical questions.....
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for Oxalic Acid Vaporizers

  8. #108
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Grosse Ile, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,818

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    snl, only thing I can say (not being MB) is that if I did not have mite losses for 10 years or so by using a strategy that is not a treatment, and prior to that had mite losses with and without treatments, I would put some degree of faith in what I was currently doing. To have an answer prepared ahead of time, in case anyone asks what I would do if what I was currently doing didn't work anymore, is not something that I would spend much time thinking about beforehand. JMO.

  9. #109
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Walker, Alabama, USA
    Posts
    868

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    We all answer hypothetical questions.....

    In that case, how about answering one for me? Mr. Bush has a method that works for him. You've got a method that works for you. Why are you so intent on badgering Michael Bush about his methods when he doesn't badger you about yours?

    I'm not TF but I am comfortable enough with the success of my own methods that I don't need to validate them by tearing into the TF folks about theirs.

    JMO

    Rusty
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper & Rusty's Bees ( LC and T)

  10. #110
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    We all answer hypothetical questions.....
    Whatever MannLake sells. Like MAQIIs. Is Hopguard legal in NY state?

    But, I bought resistant bees so I don't have to mess with chemicals.

  11. #111
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    1,944

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Hills Farm View Post
    You've got a method that works for you. Why are you so intent on badgering Michael Bush about his methods when he doesn't badger you about yours?
    I'm not badgering MB. It's a legitimate question that he has chosen not to answer. That's fine.
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for Oxalic Acid Vaporizers

  12. #112
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Walker, Alabama, USA
    Posts
    868

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    No, It's not a legitimate question. It's a deliberately provocative one. And, yes, you are badgering. He's just too polite to say so. I'm not. Personally I think you need to rethink this particular sales tactic. It's not the best way to win new customers. It sure isn't winning me.

    JMO

    Rusty
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper & Rusty's Bees ( LC and T)

  13. #113
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,541

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?



    The above photo is not from a peer reviewed study, but something we did on our kitchen table (I helped my nephew replicate it for a school project and the results were the same).

    The photo is the data. Each jar has an equal amount of water and sugar and is kept at the same temperature (temp regulated water bath).
    The jar on the left was the control, the next one had 1 drop of FA, the next 3 drops, 5 drops....etc. The FA we got from a local beekeeper and was at the strength it was supposed to be used at.

    After the sugar was dissolved, the FA added, and the temps stabilized and equal, an equal amount of bread yeast was put into each jar, and a glove fitted around the rim to measure the gas produced from the yeast fermenting.

    A picture is worth a thousand words.
    http://www.beeuntoothers.com/NoBeeIsAnIsland.pdf
    Last edited by deknow; 01-26-2014 at 08:59 AM. Reason: added the text
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  14. #114
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,541

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...83#post1049683

    Perhaps I'm more attuned to this stuff than most (having the task of writing a beginning beekeeping book from scratch makes you think of all the people with a book in one hand and a package in another who never mastered the art of setting the clock on their stove), but when giving any kind of advice, one has to think of _all_ the people that might try to follow that advice.
    I'd bet that 90% (or more) of beekeepers that cite 'checkerboarding' as a swarm prevention technique think that it refers to manipulation in the brood nest. The technique that Walt has championed (for better or for worse) is decidely different than what beekeepers 'try' when they dismiss 'checkerboarding' (I'm not referring the MP here, but I know beekeepers of equal caliber who clearly don't understand the concept, and dismiss it for the wrong reasons).
    Anyone that really wants ideas, thoughts, concepts, techniques, caveats, warnings, etc. to be understood must take some care in making sure they are being understood.
    I've not seen such care here, or on 'the vendors website'. Seems a shame that being understood by ones customers doesn't seem to be as much a priority as securing the customers.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  15. #115
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,718

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Yes giving people the whole story is important. And in the spirit of that I would point out that this thread is about the vendors product, OA. The experiment shown as an example in post #113 did not use OA, I feel this should have been made clearer. We want people to understand, rather than be confused.

    I am sure there would be any number of common household products could have been added to the mix to kill the yeast also. Table salt, for example.
    Last edited by Oldtimer; 01-26-2014 at 12:59 PM. Reason: changed quoted post number
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  16. #116
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    1,944

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    The experiment shown as an example in post #133 did not use OA, I feel this should have been made clearer. We want people to understand, rather than be confused.
    I'm confused. OT there are only 115 posts here at the time you posted. Kill yeast???
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for Oxalic Acid Vaporizers

  17. #117
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,541

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    The experiment shown as an example in post #133 did not use OA, I feel this should have been made clearer. We want people to understand, rather than be confused.
    Apologies if anyone was confused...it was not my intention to mislead. I was only intending to be as brief as possible while being as descriptive as possible. FA means 'formic acid', it does not mean 'oxalic acid'.
    Notice that even 3 drops noticeably decreases the amount of fermentation. I can't testify that this was at 65% dilution, but the beekeeper that supplied it had it at usable concentration from the instructions he had. Note that a single MiteAwayII pad (discontiuned) had about 51 teaspoons of 65% formic...I'm talking about 3 drops.
    I don't, however, see how anyone could characterize doing this demonstration, doing it well, documenting it well, presenting it well and completely and posting about it in this thread (it's hardly the first mention of FA in the thread) as anything other than trying to be as clear as possible.

    I guess I don't know what isn't clear about FA not being oxalic acid...but I'm always looking to improve my writing wrt people understanding...did anyone actually misunderstand that this was formic acid?

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  18. #118
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,541

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    Kill yeast???
    Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2008 05:44:12 GMT
    Reply-To: Informed Discussion of Beekeeping Issues and Bee Biology
    <BEE-L@LISTSERV.ALBANY.EDU>


    we see where we got things wrong in "No Bee Is An Island". it isn't that the
    pollen grain needs to ferment in order to just "pop open"...it is the
    progression of many fermentation processes, each setting the stage for the next, that
    produces necessary substances for the other microbes, and for the bees. think of the
    fermentation of pollen as a tree rotting in the forest...there is a progression of bugs
    living underneath it, a few tunneling inside, molds and fungi, sow bugs, centipedes.....

    the exact makeup of this culture of microorganisms is a heritable thing...perhaps more so
    than the genetics of the bees, and perhaps more important. antibiotics, pesticides, and
    other treatments that disrupt the microbial balance (which seems to include sugar as a
    winter feed) will, over time, erode the diversity and functionality of this culture.

    the key (regardless of cell size) is not so much to breed a varroa (or nosema) resistant
    bee, but to allow the bees to build up their microbial culture without interference.
    keeping the bees alive long enough for this to happen is the trick....and perhaps that's
    what sc has to offer...perhaps it's a red herring, but we are both convinced that the
    microbes are the key. we think that sc might well give a head start (our experience
    suggests this).

    it may be that in some areas, some of the essential microbes have become extinct and/or
    rare due to the impacts of varroa, tracheal mite, and beekeeper practices...perhaps this
    points to why some have success and other failure. it's more than likely that these
    microbial cultures have some things in common, and some are localized.
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  19. #119
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,718

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    I'm confused. OT there are only 115 posts here at the time you posted. Kill yeast???
    Oh my mistake, edited the post it should read post #113. The post with an experiment some may assume was done using OA. But it wasn't.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  20. #120
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,718

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Note that a single MiteAwayII pad (discontiuned) had about 51 teaspoons of 65% formic..
    Note also that 51 teaspoons of 65% formic is not 1 teaspoon of oxalic. The amount of oxalic typically used to vaporise a hive. Formic is not oxalic.

    The thread is about oxalic. Why confuse the issue?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

Page 6 of 16 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads