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  1. #81
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    From Michael Bush: Are you sure you want to ask this question?

    Answer: I believe Michael's response was meant to mean, if I ask the question, I might not like the answer. That's not been the case at all. The responses are great and informative.
    Judging from the increase in sales on OxaVap.com the last couple of days, many beekeepers have chosen OAV as a weapon against mites.
    Last edited by snl; 01-23-2014 at 08:05 AM.
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for Oxalic Acid Vaporizers

  2. #82
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    I used OAV for the first time last winter and after getting one whiff of the stuff being vaporized, I went and got a mask. Could I have worn the mask off the get go, sure, but I had to see just how bad it really was!! I didn't stand in the cloud, but close enough to get that eye opening dose...........wont happen again!! I do wear eye protection with sunglasses, I wear a mask, and I wear rubber gloves. I keep an eye on the wind direction and I run a 15' cord with the on/off toggle switch within feet of the battery. Its a simple process and although it does take time, to me its time spent outdoors at the beeyard which is therapeutic to me. And I am not running thousands of hives!!!
    Coyote Creek Bees

  3. #83
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeGhost View Post
    after getting one whiff of the stuff being vaporized, I went and got a mask. Could I have worn the mask off the get go, sure, but I had to see just how bad it really was!! I didn't stand in the cloud, but close enough to get that eye opening dose...........wont happen again!!
    As Michael Bush wrote: "A wise person wouldn't inhale it more than once...."
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for Oxalic Acid Vaporizers

  4. #84
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    As Michael Bush wrote: "A wise person wouldn't inhale it more than once...."
    No doubt, I knew it wouldn't kill me unless I put it in a crack pipe and smoked it! But had to see what it was like! As for precautions, everything these days is bad for you, just look at MSDS sheets, they even have one for water!

    Even Hopguard which is supposed to be a natural miticide can be fatal to dogs. And you are suppose to wear PPE while applying it.

    I like OAV because its an economical way to kill mites, and it works.
    Coyote Creek Bees

  5. #85
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    >I used OAV for the first time last winter and after getting one whiff of the stuff being vaporized, I went and got a mask.

    When I was experimenting with it, I always lit a smoker so I can see which way the wind is drifting and if it's shifting and then stand up wind. I don't really see the need for the mask IF you are a good distance off and up wind.

    >I believe it is more accurate to say that changing Ph changes what microbes are present. I also have a problem with that being presented like it is a bad thing.

    Maybe, but this is a substance that is commonly used as a disinfectant. At high concentrations it kills all the microbes. At lower concentrations it would shift WHICH microbes flourish and which die. At the concentrations it takes to kill mites, it is a disinfectant.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  6. #86
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Then we could go into the distinction of a disinfecting, sanitizing and sterilizing. They are not the same thing. So you claim that OA at the concentrations is it applied to the hive Disinfects. Does it? And if it does what does that mean. Because it is not what most people would think. you do not remove or necessarily even kill organisms with disinfectant. Infection is caused by the transferring of an organism. say a virus from one person to another. or one animal to another. disinfecting simply removes this ability of transference.

    You then bring up the issue of strength. Strength in comparison to what as well as strength resulting in what. Let's think about OA in comparison to something like Bleach. now bleach sanitizes. Sanitizing is the killing of the microbes.

    Finally is the issue of does it matter. Again a sick hive indicates the wrong micro flora already exists. destruction of it is in fact desired. The imbalanced micro flora is as likely a result of the wood you used to make the hive as it is the application of any treatment. It is more likely to be a result of the chemicals the bees introduce to the hive via foraging than anything else. OA is in fact added to the hive by the bees themselves. so how do you know that using OA as a treatment is not putting the hive back in balance? That the bees get healthier would be an evidence that it does.

    In all it comes down to this. it is an argument that says. don't kill the mites that we know will kill your bees. Because it might cause harm to other organisms. but we cannot even be sure those other organisms even matter. and of course the health of the hive indicates they could very will be harmful. What I care about is killing the mites killing my bees. and I do not complicate it much beyond that. if I find a treatment causes a poor reaction in my bees. I will then seriously consider the use of it. but I find the health of my bees improves after treatment. I do not need to investigate what is not happening. This thinking appears more to me like paranoia. Oh my your bees are better. you might be doing very bad things.

    Okay I agree it may be doing bad things. but my bad thing is far better than the mites. The bees can live with my damage.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  7. #87
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    >Then we could go into the distinction of a disinfecting, sanitizing and sterilizing. They are not the same thing.

    Yes, they are exactly the same thing with the exception that "sterilizing" is generally used to be more complete.

    > So you claim that OA at the concentrations is it applied to the hive Disinfects. Does it?

    It is used as a disinfectant routinely in many applications. A strong vapor of it will disinfect whatever that vapor comes into contac with, yes.

    > And if it does what does that mean. Because it is not what most people would think. you do not remove or necessarily even kill organisms with disinfectant.

    Of course you do. That is precisely what a disinfectant does.

    > Infection is caused by the transferring of an organism. say a virus from one person to another. or one animal to another. disinfecting simply removes this ability of transference.

    Actually infection is caused by a imbalance in the host organism that allows the pathogen an environment where it can flourish. The term "disinfectant" is not very accurate, but it is commonly used to refer to things that kill the germs on surfaces.

    >You then bring up the issue of strength. Strength in comparison to what as well as strength resulting in what.

    It's a matter of concentration that makes an acid into a disinfectant/sanatizer/sterilizer.

    >Let's think about OA in comparison to something like Bleach. now bleach sanitizes. Sanitizing is the killing of the microbes.

    Which is precisely what OA does and what it is commonly used for.

    >Finally is the issue of does it matter. Again a sick hive indicates the wrong micro flora already exists.

    Perhaps. Or perhaps it indicates other issues, such as malnutrition, external parasites, attacks by other bees, ants etc.

    >destruction of it is in fact desired.

    That is the general "germ theory of disease" which finally, in recent times, is being refuted by new research. In fact, most of our human diseases are caused by our killing off the microbes that should be living in our own bodies.

    > The imbalanced micro flora is as likely a result of the wood you used to make the hive as it is the application of any treatment.

    It's more likely due to antibiotics or simply shifting the pH either with treatments or with sugar syrup.

    >It is more likely to be a result of the chemicals the bees introduce to the hive via foraging than anything else.

    All of the studies I've seen on chemicals in the hive reveal that most of the chemicals in the hive are put there by beekeepers.

    > OA is in fact added to the hive by the bees themselves.

    At extermely low amounts comapred to treating with it, but yes, plants produce it, honey often has very low amounts of several organic acids, including OA along with formic, malic, acetic etc.

    >so how do you know that using OA as a treatment is not putting the hive back in balance?

    An acid applied at full strength will not put microbes back in balance. To do that a slight shift in pH might do the trick, if it was in the right direction, but killing off all the microbes wholesale will not.

    > That the bees get healthier would be an evidence that it does.

    A lot of things can be done in the short run that don't pay off in the long run, but in general, healthier bees would be a good indication.

    >In all it comes down to this. it is an argument that says. don't kill the mites that we know will kill your bees.

    But the mites do not kill my bees.

    >Because it might cause harm to other organisms.

    That we know the bees require to live.

    > but we cannot even be sure those other organisms even matter.

    Yes, we can. There are plenty of studies that the fermentation of bee bread is essential to the survival of the bees. There are plenty of studies that show that the bacteria in the gut of the bee protects them from EFB, AFB, Nosema and Chalkbrood:

    http://www.beeuntoothers.com/index.p...lliam-archives
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0033188

    > and of course the health of the hive indicates they could very will be harmful.

    Of the 8,000+ organisms that live in a bee colony, we have identified only a handful that are harmful. Of bacteria, only two: Melissococcus pluton (EHB) and Paenbacillus larvae. Of fungus, only five: Ascosphaera apis (chalkbrood), Aspergillus flavus and Aspergillus fumigatus (stonebrood), Nosema apis, Nosema ceranae. Of viruses 12: Chronic Paralysis Virus (CPV), Acute bee paralysis virus (ABPV), Iraeli acute paralysis virus (IAPV), Kasmir bee virus (KBV), Black queen cell virus (BQCV), Cloudy wing virus (CWV), Sacbrood virus (SBV), Deformed wing virus (DWV), Kakugo virus (KV), Vorroa destructor virus 1, Invertebrate iridescent virus type 6 (IIV-6), Tobacco ringspot virus (TRSV)

    So of the microbes we know of (8,000+) there are 19 that are pathogens that we know of. So the other 8,000 or so are either benign, in which case they are indirectly beneficial by crowding out pathogens, or they are directly beneficial such as the ones in the gut of the bee that form a biofilm to protect them, or the ones that are used to ferment pollen into bee bread. I suspect we will finally discover CCD was of our own making because we did not take into account the importance of these microorganisms.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  8. #88
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    "That is the general "germ theory of disease" which finally, in recent times, is being refuted by new research. In fact, most of our human diseases are caused by our killing off the microbes that should be living in our own bodies."

    Most of our human diseases? Maybe. Let's say that is true. Before we had antibiotics, processed food, or anything we enjoy today there were still infections diseases. Plague, smallpox, black death, old school VDs, influenza, cholera, etc.

    Nowadays we still have plenty of diseases - new diseases of our own making like MERSA even - but despite the negative effects of modern medicine we live about twice as long, and most babies (and mothers) don't die in childbirth. And personally I've never known of anyone who died of any of those horrible diseases I mentioned. We disparage medicine, and technology awfully easily - but it looks to me like we are fortunate to have it. Maybe we just need to learn to use it more wisely.
    Last edited by David LaFerney; 01-24-2014 at 02:09 PM.
    since '09-25H-T-Z6b

  9. #89
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    In fact, most of our human diseases are caused by our killing off the microbes that should be living in our own bodies.
    Are you sure you really want to say that? What about the millions and millions of people who died prior to antitbiotics..
    Last edited by snl; 01-24-2014 at 11:14 AM.
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for Oxalic Acid Vaporizers

  10. #90
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    I think it would take some getting used to for people to start going without soap, deodorant, foot powder and other PH altering substances. Maybe we would become more disease free eventually though!

  11. #91
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    In all it comes down to this. it is an argument that says. don't kill the mites that we know will kill your bees. Because it might cause harm to other organisms. but we cannot even be sure those other organisms even matter. and of course the health of the hive indicates they could very will be harmful. What I care about is killing the mites killing my bees. and I do not complicate it much beyond that. if I find a treatment causes a poor reaction in my bees. I will then seriously consider the use of it. but I find the health of my bees improves after treatment. I do not need to investigate what is not happening. This thinking appears more to me like paranoia. Oh my your bees are better. you might be doing very bad things.
    I find your view on mite control to be very reckless and irresponsible. This is typical of how many problems are solved today, "let's use this method because it seems to help fix the current issue we are having, at least it looks like it's working, and no thought is given to the repercussions down the road of using the method, but who cares, we have accomplished our immediate goal." I think Mike Bush did a good job of answering many of your statements, he obviously has much more patience than I.

  12. #92
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    >>In fact, most of our human diseases are caused by our killing off the microbes that should be living in our own bodies.

    >Are you sure you really want to say that?

    I try to never say anything without some thought. Yes.

    >What about the millions and millions of people who died prior to antitbiotics..

    That was then. This is now. Now we have a whole different problem.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  13. #93
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >>In fact, most of our human diseases are caused by our killing off the microbes that should be living in our own bodies.
    That was then. This is now. Now we have a whole different problem.
    What about the benefits of killing off bad microbes which we've enjoyed (that no doubt kill off some good ones at the same time). Our life now is much better for the use of them. It seems (no, it is) that the benefits outweigh the negatives.... Why can't the same be said for bees?
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for Oxalic Acid Vaporizers

  14. #94
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    >What about the benefits of killing off bad microbes which we've enjoyed (that no doubt kill off some good ones at the same time). Our life now is much better for the use of them.

    Perhaps. If we had used antiboiotics when they were appropriate (life threatening problems) then our life might have been improved. As it is we've invented new super bugs.

    >It seems (no, it is) that the benefits outweigh the negatives.... Why can't the same be said for bees?

    We save people at all costs, short and long term. Because we are people. Because we value human life beyond what people can produce and beyond the genetics they can contribute. It has been good to us as individuals, and bad for us as a race, but it's what we do because of how we view human life.

    Bees are not people. If you value bees as you do people, then you will have to spend your winters catching the ones the fall in the snow and warming them up and putting them back in the hive. Bees are important for what they do, and what they contribute to the ecology and what they contribute genetically to the future of our world. Propping up genetically inferior bees is bad for bees as a race and bad for the world.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  15. #95
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    The time frame and scale in which you examine a problem/solution has a big influence on what choices will be made. What might be good for humanity in a thousand year period cannot be sold to people on a person to person or human scale based on their experience time frame. The same could be said about the creatures we call bees: Very wide brush!

    Michael might be quite correct that we "now have a whole different problem"; it appears that we are too healthy and reproductive for our own long term good!

    Very difficult to decide on what might be the best eventual solution unless human values are removed from the equation.

  16. #96
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    The quantity of oxalic used in sublimation treatments would not kill off all the pathogens/microflora in a beehive,and it breaks down very fast, may kill some, good and bad, if it killed off Nosema spores,AFB, EFB bacteria, chalkbrood etc by sublimating one gram of oxalic, i would like it even more.

  17. #97
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    >The quantity of oxalic used in sublimation treatments would not kill off all the pathogens/microflora in a beehive

    No. Only what it comes in contact with.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  18. #98
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    All of the studies I've seen on chemicals in the hive reveal that most of the chemicals in the hive are put there by beekeepers.
    Agreed, but far greater numbers of pesticides and fungicides are added by the bees.

    The most frequently found residues were from fluvalinate and coumaphos, followed in order by chlorpyrifos, chlorothalonil, amitraz, pendimethalin, endosulfan, fenpropathrin, esfenvalerate and atrazine. These top ten comprise three in-hive miticides and five insecticidal, one fungicidal and one herbicidal crop protection agents (Table 4). In pollen, unprecedented levels (up to 99 ppm) of chlorothalonil were found, along with ppm levels of aldicarb, captan, carbaryl, myclobutanil, pendimethalin and the Varroa miticides (Tables 2, 4). Near ppm levels of imidacloprid, boscalid and chlorpyrifos were also noted in pollen, with lesser but substantial amounts of potentially synergistic fungicides such as fenbuconazole, cyprodinil and propiconazole. Almost all wax samples (98%) were contaminated with fluvalinate and coumaphos up to 204 and 94 ppm, respectively, along with lower amounts and frequency of amitraz degradates and chlorothalonil. Near ppm levels of chlorpyrifos, aldicarb, deltamethrin, iprodione and methoxyfenozide were also found in comb wax



    High levels of fluvalinate and coumaphos are co-occuring with lower but significant levels of 98 other insecticides, fungicides and herbicides in pollen. Most noteworthy were the very high levels of the fungicide chlorothalonil in pollen and wax (Tables 1, 2, 4) as well as ppm levels of the insecticides aldicarb, carbaryl, chlorpyrifos and imidacloprid, fungicides boscalid, captan and myclobutanil, and herbicide pendimethalin. With an average of 7 pesticides in a pollen sample, the potential for multiple pesticide interactions affecting bee health seems likely. Ten pesticides were found in pollen at greater than one tenth the bee LD50 level indicating that sublethal effects of these toxicants alone are highly likely. European researchers have noted fewer and usually lower levels of pesticides in pollen samples, although high detections of particularly carbamates and pyrethroids have been reported

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0009754

  19. #99
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    No. Only what it comes in contact with.

    Which with sublimation, at least, would not generally be the bees guts or pollen/ honey etc, only things on the surface, and for a short duration, as opposed to trickle which the bees consume, and because of the syrup content would end up mixed with both pollen and honey to some extent.

    I would like to see some actual peer reviewed research into what difference/damage one gram of sublimated oxalic makes within a beehive to the microflora.

  20. #100
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    >Which with sublimation, at least, would not generally be the bees guts or pollen/ honey etc, only things on the surface, and for a short duration, as opposed to trickle which the bees consume, and because of the syrup content would end up mixed with both pollen and honey to some extent.

    Agreed. It will in general, though, lower the pH of everything in the hive becaue of the residue, but certainly less than trickling will. Trickling also has the downside of damaging the malpighian tubules.

    >Agreed, but far greater numbers of pesticides and fungicides are added by the bees.

    The large amounts are mostly things added by the beekeeper. The lower amounts are things of greater number as the treatments (approved and unapproved) used by beekeepers is a small number.

    The world would be a much healthier place if we weren't so intent on killing everything... weeds, insects, fungus...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

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