Page 3 of 16 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 305
  1. #41
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Rowley, MA
    Posts
    253

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    What would be the result pif selling the honey to consumers, do we need to mark it as treated with an unapproved pesticide? it is so attractive because it seems easy and cheap but I fear the implications of using something that has not been studied by the FDA (or the EPA or whoever does these things !). When a customer asks me if I treat i do tell them what I treat with (MAQs and API LIFE) and explain that formic acid is natural in the hive and that the thymol comes from Thyme plants and is not used with supers on, not sure what to tell them if I used OA, so I have to stay away from against the complaints of my wallet and my better sense.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    2,378

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    One would think that _adding_ safety warnings to a website would be a better solution to not having them there than deleting the posts pointing out that they aren't there....if safety of one's customers was a concern. deknow
    The warning is there. If you choose not to read it or view it or it does not meet with your satisfaction, that's fine. But a discussion on how I run my website is not up for discussion.
    Last edited by snl; 01-20-2014 at 10:37 AM.
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the Varrox OA Vaporizer,
    "One of the highest ranked" by R. Oliver

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    It's going to take some one/group/organization that's larger than the few manufactures/distributors of vaporizers to move this along. There is little or no financial gain to be made from this. OA Vaporizers are legal, OA is legal, what is illegal is using the OA as mitecide in a US beehive again even tho the rest of the world is doing so. I'm talking to my State Senator, talk to yours as well ... we'll see Larry
    I've reached out to someone at IR4 on the issue.

    Let's see what they say.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    2,378

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkster View Post
    not sure what to tell them if I used OA, so I have to stay away from against the complaints of my wallet and my better sense.
    That OA is natural in many leafy vegetables. That the rest of the world is using it and in fact many, many, many commercial beekeepers in the US are using it.

    The point of this thread was to ask why your are not using it and some have replied to that simple question. You do not have to use it at all. It is up to you.
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the Varrox OA Vaporizer,
    "One of the highest ranked" by R. Oliver

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    snl:

    I see the issue as being related not so much to it's safety for bees or honey.

    I've gone over the safe handling issue before.

    While beekeepers can get OA in various pure forms in other countries, whether it's tablets for use by small scale beekeepers to use in a syrup dribble, or in powder form for vaporization, that's not the case here in the U.S..

    So, it becomes an issue of where to get OA in the right grade/purity.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    SOMERSET, ENGLAND
    Posts
    350

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkster View Post
    When a customer asks me if I treat i do tell them what I treat with (MAQs and API LIFE) and explain that formic acid is natural in the hive and that the thymol comes from Thyme plants and is not used with supers on, not sure what to tell them if I used OA, so I have to stay away from against the complaints of my wallet and my better sense.
    Oxalic is also a natural ingredient of honey, and in the bees body.


    Residues in honey
    After the 1999 treatment, the oxalic acid content of the unsealed honey collected from the supers increased up to the value of 0,59 mg/kg that was reached on the fourth day. From the eighth day on, the contamination was lower than 0,1 mg/kg. Honey stores sampled during the following autumn still contained 0,07-0,1 mg/kg. These values are small if compared to the natural content of oxalic acid in honey, which ranges between 3 and 760 mg/kg according to the botanical type (NANETTI et al., 2002), and lay within its natural range of variability. This indicates a low risk of important contamination in the honey intended for extraction.
    In 200
    2 the honey was collected from combs that were built by the bees in the period between two subsequent samplings, reducing the possible influence of dilution with non-contaminated pre-existing honey. This makes the relevant data much more representative of the actual transfer from bees to honey. In this case, a maximum of 54,2 mg/kg was recorded 12 hours after the treatment (fig. 5) but a steep decrease followed, leading to values ranging between 6 and 13,8 mg/kg in the period 1- 12 days after treatment. Further recordings laid below 1 mg/kg.



    Natural content of organic acids
    Formic and oxalic acid are natural honey
    constituents. It is not clear to what extent they
    originate from bees or from the nectar, but it has
    been reported that oxalic acid is added to honey by the bees (Echigo and Takenaka, 1974).

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,603

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Surely Dean, that warning on a can of paint isn't what keeps you from inhaling it? I'll bet you wouldn't do that even if the warning wasn't on it. Hopefully there is a commonsense balance within this issue.

    Mod, feel free to delete if this is off topic in this thread.
    Regards, Barry

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    2,378

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    snl:
    So, it becomes an issue of where to get OA in the right grade/purity.
    The OA sold in stores as wood bleach according to the manufacturer is 99.5% pure...........
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the Varrox OA Vaporizer,
    "One of the highest ranked" by R. Oliver

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,704

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Jim,
    I think safety is the primary issue here.

    Yes, much of the safety issues have to do with the fact that it isn't legal (and therefore is a bit clandestine)...an unfortunate fact.

    I also think there are other reasons not to use it (damage to the malphagian tubules was well documented last time I looked...and certainly if harming the microflora is to be avoided OA is a terrible choice)....but these come in second for me, at least as far as why it shouldn't be touted as a cureall without some very strong (and unavoidable) precautions be required and well spelled out for the user.

    I'm not (and wasn't at the time) in favor of sending Chong to jail for selling pipes...but it was predictable...he did what everyone else in that business knew not to do....he marketed those pipes for smoking pot...every other pipe on the market (before the recent decriminalization efforts) was being sold for tobacco use only.

    The folks that sell the OA (not the vaporizer) and who put together the MSDS for the product are not doing so so that it can be vaporized (at least in the US)...it lists a melting point, but not a vaporization point. The precautions do briefly mention vapor, but barely...they are more concerned with the dust....they say to "avoid high temperature and ignition sources". The MSDS basically says not to use it in an OA vaporizer.

    Some things can be used for other purposes without thinking too much about it (you can hammer in a nail with a hive tool), but taking a strong organic acid and heating it until it sublimates into a vapor is not a small thing...and it's not something that the label of the OA is going to give you good advice about.

    Seems like if I'm telling you it is a good idea, if I tell you it works, if I tell you that you can go buy the OA anywhere (but not from me), if I tell you I will sell you the simple and effective tool that will allow you to vaporize OA in your hive and kill the mites....seems like a good time to point out that it isn't legal to use and that there are some important safety precautions to take.

    I agree with SNL about how legal treatments are often misused...I've seen it over and over. Sometimes the user "knows better" than the label...but oftentimes they just don't understand what they are supposed to do. I'd like to see users and potential users have the legality and precautions in front of them in big letters so that they are making an informed decision.

    deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Grosse Ile, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,901

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Seem like the predominate mentality then is to use the stuff and ask the questions later. I understand the desperation to try to save bees from the effects of varroa, especially commercial operators who have much more at stake.

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    2,378

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    I agree with SNL about how legal treatments are often misused...I've seen it over and over. Sometimes the user "knows better" than the label...but oftentimes they just don't understand what they are supposed to do. I'd like to see users and potential users have the legality and precautions in front of them in big letters so that they are making an informed decision. deknow
    That's fine, but pick another forum.
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the Varrox OA Vaporizer,
    "One of the highest ranked" by R. Oliver

  12. #52
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?


  13. #53
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    2,378

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmgi View Post
    Seem like the predominate mentality then is to use the stuff and ask the questions later.
    That's sad if true, hopefully one does their research
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the Varrox OA Vaporizer,
    "One of the highest ranked" by R. Oliver

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    SOMERSET, ENGLAND
    Posts
    350

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Jim,
    I also think there are other reasons not to use it (damage to the malphagian tubules was well documented last time I looked...
    The oxalic trickle method is hard on the bees, and causes lots of problems, damage to internal organs, retarded growth, old bees do not tolerate it well, nor nosemic bees, it is mixed with sugar so the bees ingest it, and only one treatment advised in winter..sublimation is much softer on the bees, can be used several times without doing much harm, if fact none that i have seen...compared to the trickle method, which i would never use again.

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,704

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Surely Dean, that warning on a can of paint isn't what keeps you from inhaling it? I'll bet you wouldn't do that even if the warning wasn't on it. Hopefully there is a commonsense balance within this issue.
    Mod, feel free to delete if this is off topic in this thread.
    ...at least if I didn't know any better, it was disclosed clearly to me on the label that not only should I not do it (for some legal reason) but that it will do me harm.
    If the label on the OA I purchase doesn't tell me how to heat it to sublimation temps safely how do I know what precautions are necessary?
    I'm reminded of Sam Comfort talking about his days working for a beekeeper (by himself in isolation) when the mites started to ravage the bees.
    First came the bulk Coumaphos in a plastic tub to be applied with an ice cream scoop...then came the bulk formic acid that burned through his gloves (and I think a finger).

    The safety aspects are being ignored by the OA manufacturers (because this use isn't even on their radar and they can't sell it for this purpose anyways), and those promoting its use don't seem to be focused on the safety issues.

    deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Menlo Park, CA, USA
    Posts
    68

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    The failure to follow through wasn't the fault of the ABF- it's the EPA dragging their feet.

    I asked the ABF about this a few months ago, and received this reply:

    "Some years ago right after Canada approved oxalic for general use, the ABF bought the documents including all the tests and trials they had used and made our own application to the EPA. It was not accepted partly because they would not accept Canadian tests, and partly because the ABF did not plan on selling the pre-dosed product. Normally, a registrant would apply for approval of a proprietary product that would be sold in a form and a dose as registered and labeled. Eventually, the ABF turned all the materials over to Cook and Beals as they had an interest in developing a dosed package. Last time I checked, EPA had not responded. Interestingly enough, during the negotiations to register APIVAR, EPA offered to register oxalic if we would drop our AMITRAZ request. But nothing came of that since the registrant ARYSTA wanted to sell their patented product, and had no ownership of oxalic. The bee industry said to go ahead and register oxalic please because it is an effective tool, but commercial beekeepers could not be dependent on it alone. Anyway, the application is in place, and EPA will respond in their own time."

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Dominic, what's even stranger is that the CHC sent the ABF the required materials for OA registration in the U.S. . But, the ABF never followed through. So, Canada did try to help U.S. beekeepers to use OA for treatments.

    "The Canadian Honey Council has provided the American Beekeeping Federation their registration data packet to expedite the registration of OA in the USA. As a result, the recommended concentration of the OA solution that will appear on the US label will most likely be identical to the Canadian label. "

    (Aliano, 2009)

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    2,378

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Whether or not you agree with the using OA in either a dribble or vaporized form for many of the reasons discussed here and in other forums, there is no doubt that it works. Potential users would do well to research the product and draw their own conclusions. It is another weapon on the war on mites that I'm sure if it was an approved mitecide here in the US as it is in the rest of the world, beekeepers would not hesitate to openly use it to save their hives.
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the Varrox OA Vaporizer,
    "One of the highest ranked" by R. Oliver

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    SOMERSET, ENGLAND
    Posts
    350

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    It is another weapon on the war on mites that I'm sure if it was an approved mitecide here in the US as it is in the rest of the world, beekeepers would not hesitate to openly use it to save their hives.
    It is an excellent weapon in the war against varroa, and been well researched in Europe for a long time, and i think your doing a good service providing the equipment for beekeepers in the USA Larry.

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Arras, British Columbia, Canada
    Posts
    180

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmgi View Post
    Seem like the predominate mentality then is to use the stuff and ask the questions later. I understand the desperation to try to save bees from the effects of varroa, especially commercial operators who have much more at stake.
    JMGI
    I don't know why I am engaging an uniformed dissident on here, you seem to raise concerns without any facts. Oxalic has to be used at the prescribed dose 3.2% I think I have dosed as high as 3.5%. Perhaps use your internets to go to Wikipedia and look up Oxalic Acid. You will note that it occurs naturally in many vegetables. If I could get my bees to eat their chives... yes chives have 1.48% oxalic acid in them. But my bees won't eat chives. I think the folks on here who claim brood problems and honey problems are not using it as prescribed.

    I can also comment that it is very cheap. Ergo there is no motivation for anyone to jump through the red tape to get it approved. I believe I paid $10 for 2.2lbs of 99.6% oxalic acid. That would be enough to treat 560 single hives.

    I buy mine in Canada from Medivet Pharmaceuticals. I follow the drench method in a syringe and put 5ml between each occupied frame space. Please read the destructions here: http://medivetpharmaceuticals.webs.c...licacid996.htm as well as Wikipedia and come up with a rational argument against it. Take your emotions home if I can't make money I won't be beekeeping.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Rowley, MA
    Posts
    253

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    That OA is natural in many leafy vegetables. That the rest of the world is using it and in fact many, many, many commercial beekeepers in the US are using it.

    The point of this thread was to ask why your are not using it and some have replied to that simple question. You do not have to use it at all. It is up to you.
    Sorry thought I was answering the question. If we complain about imported honey having unapproved antibiotics and chemicals in it making local honey safer it seems disingenuous to turn around and use an unapproved chemical in our hives. Maybe I am over thinking it

Page 3 of 16 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads