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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    My complaint has been that many beekeepers mishandle OA. It's more than just not knowing how to get the correct final OA concentration in syrup when using the dihydrate.

    In my opinion, it's far more of a health and safety risk to the beekeepers themselves.

    I've seen it in videos being measured and mixed on kitchen counters, vaporized with the beekeeper getting a good wiff of the vapor (w/o protection), etc. .

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    My complaint has been that many beekeepers mishandle OA. It's more than just not knowing how to get the correct final OA concentration in syrup when using the dihydrate.

    In my opinion, it's far more of a health and safety risk to the beekeepers themselves.

    I've seen it in videos being measured and mixed on kitchen counters, vaporized with the beekeeper getting a good wiff of the vapor (w/o protection), etc. .
    It's no more of a health or safety issue than other products that are mishandled/abused or not applied as prescribed.......
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for Oxalic Acid Vaporizers

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    It's no more of a health or safety issue than other products that are mishandled/abused or not applied as prescribed.......
    That's the problem here in the U.S., it doesn't come with application instructions/warnings.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    I'm going to take this opportunity to agree with WLC. I've told the story before...purchased a vaporizer (this was like 10 years ago), used it one fall. I have the thing sitting around and meet someone at the local bee club that is looking for one, I don't need or want mine anymore and it was worth $75 to the beekeeper...seems like a no brainer to sell it to him.

    ...until we start talking and it becomes clear that he doesn't understand anything...he is planning to vaporize liquid formic acid in the thing. I told him I couldn't find the vaporizer and never sold it to him...I didn't think it was safe for him to have, and I'd rather someone else sell him one if he really wants to try.

    Vaporizing and/or mixing OA is no joke. IMHO, selling vaporizers that can't be used legally (especially with the food security awareness/regulations that are coming into play) isn't a joke either...especially if the customer is mislead by claims of safety and effectiveness and not told by the person taking their money that they will be in violation of the law if they use the product. Such a warning/disclaimer seems like a minimum amount of respect and care one can show to their customers.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Dean:

    What needs to happen is that beekeepers need to put together the registration information from the CHC

    http://www.honeycouncil.ca/

    with this unit at Rutgers

    http://ir4.rutgers.edu/

    to get the process going so that U.S. beekeepers can use it as a legal acaricide.
    Last edited by WLC; 01-20-2014 at 08:19 AM.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    This Swiss government site offers considerable "official" information on oxalic acid treatment in hives, including a version in the English language:

    http://www.agroscope.admin.ch/imkere...x.html?lang=en

    One of the documents available includes a study on operator safety when applying oxalic acid to hives, including using the vaporization method. The conclusion of the study ...
    Thus, based on the presented data, a commercial apiarist could use oxalic acid treatments during the whole year 40 hours a week without damaging his health.

    http://www.agroscope.admin.ch/imkere..._JjKbNoKSn6A--
    Of course, appropriate safety measures need to be used. Click the link for more details.
    -- Victor Hugo -- "Common sense is in spite of, not the result of, education.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Vaporizing and/or mixing OA is no joke. IMHO, selling vaporizers that can't be used legally (especially with the food security awareness/regulations that are coming into play) isn't a joke either...especially if the customer is mislead by claims of safety and effectiveness and not told by the person taking their money that they will be in violation of the law if they use the product. Such a warning/disclaimer seems like a minimum amount of respect and care one can show to their customers. deknow
    There are NO misleading claims of efficacy, OA works. As to using it safely, the website and instructions clearly state precautions needed. It has been stated over and over that OA is a pesticide and is not approved as a mitecide EVEN tho the rest of the world uses it as mitecide. It's been mentioned in this thread and others several times.

    OA misuse is no different than other products that are misused, mishandled or abused.
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for Oxalic Acid Vaporizers

  8. #28
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    That's the problem here in the U.S., it doesn't come with application instructions/warnings.
    You post that as if it's fact, it is not. Every OA vaporizer I've purchased comes with application/warning instructions.........
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for Oxalic Acid Vaporizers

  9. #29
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    snl:

    Maybe it's time for you, and other OA product providers, to form an industry group and get the ball rolling on formal registration of OA for mite treatments.

    No one is stepping up to the plate.

  10. #30
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    EPA registration is a very expensive process. The current application fee alone is $597,693.00 (EPA calls it a "registration service fee". See category 020 (mentions beehives specifically) at this link:

    http://www.epa.gov/opp00001/fees/pri...pretations.pdf

    Of course, that is just the registration fee. No doubt you will also need an army of lawyers to prepare the documents.
    -- Victor Hugo -- "Common sense is in spite of, not the result of, education.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    snl: Maybe it's time for you, and other OA product providers, to form an industry group and get the ball rolling on formal registration of OA for mite treatments. No one is stepping up to the plate.
    It's going to take some one/group/organization that's larger than the few manufactures/distributors of vaporizers to move this along. There is little or no financial gain to be made from this. OA Vaporizers are legal, OA is legal, what is illegal is using the OA as mitecide in a US beehive again even tho the rest of the world is doing so. I'm talking to my State Senator, talk to yours as well ... we'll see

    Larry
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for Oxalic Acid Vaporizers

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Rader, just take a look at this page from Rutgers:

    http://ir4.rutgers.edu/Biopesticides...istrations.pdf

    Registration might not be through the regular process.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    One might look at Tommy Chong's incarceration and think about what it means to be selling and marketing a device specifically to do something that isn't legal.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Can you point these out to me...I don't see them on your website. All I see is:
    "Use appropriate protection as you should not breathe the oxalic acid fumes."

    If you think this is important information for your customers, can you point to where it is on the website where you sell these things?
    ........... the video demonstration clearly points this out.
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for Oxalic Acid Vaporizers

  15. #35
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    One of the documents available includes a study on operator safety when applying oxalic acid to hives, including using the vaporization method. The conclusion of the study ...
    I think it prudent to point out that this was a small number of beekeepers (20) who were being watched and had extra measuring equipment setup. I know that I do things differently in the beeyard when people are around and when I'm alone (it's especically important to take stings heroically if there are girls around)...never mind if there is a researchers with specialized equipment setup.

    The conclusion doesn't meet with my own observations that you don't want to breath the fumes coming off the vaporizer...I know from experience.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    The conclusion doesn't meet with my own observations that you don't want to breath the fumes coming off the vaporizer...I know from experience. dteknow
    We can't stop you from "huffing" spray paint either........ it's your choice...
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for Oxalic Acid Vaporizers

  17. #37
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    We can't stop you from "huffing" spray paint either........ it's your choice...
    ...except that the spraypaint manufacturer tells me not to....in writing, on the product.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    We can't stop you from "huffing" spray paint either........ it's your choice...
    Or just walking around breathing in harmful diesel particulates from vehicles, they should all have a big warning sticker on them.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    One might look at Tommy Chong's incarceration and think about what it means to be selling and marketing a device specifically to do something that isn't legal.

    deknow
    To me thats a pretty good parallel and a good example of why the government shouldn't get involved in victimless crime and not an example of why they should or why we need to pay more attorneys, fill out more paperwork and give Big Brother more dollars. If innocent people are put at risk it's one thing but at some point personal accountability needs to kick in here. Hardware stores and gas stations everywhere sell products that must be handled with care yet the public demands these products be available. Are you also concerned about the health of those using it as a wood bleach? Is your primary concern beekeeper safety or is your issue that you think oa is harmful to bee hives and affecting the health of the worlds bee hives. If so just say so and start a thread on it. It's a more important topic than whether someone who chooses to vaporize oa accidentally inhales some and then whether he is smart enough to either stop or take more precautions. Personally it's one of the main reasons I choose to use it as a dribble and not a vapor.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Why did you ask such an open question if you didn't want discussion?

    One would think that _adding_ safety warnings to a website would be a better solution to not having them there than deleting the posts pointing out that they aren't there....if safety of one's customers was a concern.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

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