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  1. #121
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    I am reminded of the story from back in the days of alchohol prohibition. A guy was speaking to a crowd from a platform about the evils of drink. To demonstrate, he gets a jar of live wiggly worms and holds it out for the audience to see. Then he gets a bottle of whiskey and tips it over the worms. After a short pause, he holds the jar up and the audience can see the worms are floating and dead.

    "What does that teach you?" he asks. A bum in the audience yells out "if you've got worms, drink whiskey".

    Likewise, putting 65% FA into a small jar of liquid containing yeast, does not equate to vaporising one gram of the different product oxalic, into a beehive. A more honest experiment would be to swab a beehive prior to treatment. Then vaporise a gram of oxalic into the hive. Leave perhaps a month for all traces of oxalic to be gone, and do another swab.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #122
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    A more honest experiment would be to swab a beehive prior to treatment. Then vaporise a gram of oxalic into the hive. Leave perhaps a month for all traces of oxalic to be gone, and do another swab.
    Yes it would be.
    Also the formic talked about on this thread is nothing like OA sublimation, formic is a vapour, a gas, with a very fine molecule size which can even permeate brood cell capping to kill mites, plus the bees to kill tracheal mites, and no doubt other things, 1 gram of OA when sublimated turns quickly back into a crystal, some of it even before it leaves the apparatus, and just leaves a surface coating on whatever it lands on...and soon breaks down or is removed by the bees.

  3. #123
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    A more honest experiment would be to swab a beehive prior to treatment. Then vaporise a gram of oxalic into the hive. Leave perhaps a month for all traces of oxalic to be gone, and do another swab.
    I really have a hard time believing (in this thread especially) that by posting about and/or performing the experiment we performed can be seen in any way as 'dishonest'. I haven't withheld anything, nor have I tried to mislead anyone....I haven't deleted posts and I'm not trying to sell a product (one will note that my sig file has never been an advertisement for anything).

    Could this only be 'honest' if it were done (as suggested above) with 6 active bee hives and 12 (or more) assays for microflora (Iwould expect that to cost hundreds per sample)? We did this with what we had around and documented it well and accurately. We bought gloves and we bought yeast.

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  4. #124
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by beekuk View Post
    ...and just leaves a surface coating on whatever it lands on...and soon breaks down or is removed by the bees.
    Do you know this for a fact, or is this more conjecture? Where are the studies and scientific evidence to prove this, just asking?

  5. #125
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Oh apologies Deknow, no attempt to impune your honesty intended.

    I just added clarity, as I felt that to a casual reader (and there are lots of casual readers), it could have slipped their observation that oxalic acid was not used in the experiment, and as the context of the thread is oxalic acid they may have assumed that. I also have doubts about the value of ex vivo experiments (referring in this case, to the hive as an organism in itself). They have their uses but can also be set up to demonstrate pretty much anything.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  6. #126
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Could this only be 'honest' if it were done (as suggested above) with 6 active bee hives and 12 (or more) assays for microflora (Iwould expect that to cost hundreds per sample)? We did this with what we had around and documented it well and accurately. We bought gloves and we bought yeast.

    deknow
    Yes that would be honest, didn't know you did this. How much oxalic did you use per hive by vaporisation, and what were the results of the swabs?

    Why buy yeast though? Wouldn't the idea be to compare existing yeast and other microflora afterwards, with what existed naturally before in the 6 hives already?

    Anyway, what were the results?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  7. #127
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    >We all answer hypothetical questions.....

    Foolishly, we probably do from time to time. But why waste the time and effort on somthing that isn't a real question. "If there were no such thing as gravity, what would you do to stay on the planet?" is not something you should spend a lot of time trying to answer...

    > It's a legitimate question that he has chosen not to answer.

    How are hypothetical questions legitimate? What if I asked, "if you were beating your wife everyday and someone suggested this was a bad idea..."

    Hypothetical questions are not "legitimate" questions, they are, by definition, not real questions, they are hypothetical.

    By asking what treatment I would use if I HAD to use one, you're asking me to choose what damage I consider acceptable to do to the ecology of the hive. I don't consider any damage acceptable if there is any way to avoid it, and there is so I avoid it.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  8. #128
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    > It's a legitimate question that he has chosen not to answer.
    Michael, I was going to let go of this until you responded. You call it a a hypothetical question, I believe it as a very real one and one you've chosen not to answer. That's fine. However, for many of us who must treat to save our hives, it is a very difficult decision to decide with what to treat. We have reached out to you for guidance since many of us say to ourselves from time to time "What would MB do?" You offer so many valid and good opinions as to how to do this or how to do that so that asking you, what you would use to treat your hives if what you were doing no longer worked is very real.
    Last edited by snl; 01-27-2014 at 09:13 AM. Reason: punctuation
    http://OxaVap.com
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  9. #129
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    You call it a a hypothetical question, I believe it as a very real one and one you've chosen not to answer. That's fine.
    If it's fine, then why don't you back out gracefully instead of trying to get the last word in? This is getting old.

  10. #130
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmgi View Post
    If it's fine, then why don't you back out gracefully instead of trying to get the last word in?
    I did, until Michael then again responded. Are you not interested in what MB would do if his method of controlling mites failed to work? MB is a vendor selling his book on BS and a renowned speaker. I would think everyone on BS would want to know what MB would do if his methods of mite control failed.
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for the Varrox Vaporizer, "One of the highest ranked" by R. Oliver

  11. #131

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    Are you not interested in what MB would do if his method of controlling mites failed to work?
    No.
    This horse was dead a hundred posts ago. But folks continue to thrash away. I stop by periodically just to see who's still at it.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  12. #132
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >We all answer hypothetical questions.....

    By asking what treatment I would use if I HAD to use one, you're asking me to choose what damage I consider acceptable to do to the ecology of the hive. I don't consider any damage acceptable if there is any way to avoid it, and there is so I avoid it.
    snl,
    Maybe I'm missing something, but I think he did answer your question as honestly as he could. Just because you don't like his answer, doesn't mean he didn't answer it. Personally, I think it was a loaded question...

    It's like if someone were to ask you...."I know you don't beat your kids or believe in beating kids...But if you had to beat one of them, which one would you beat?"

    And then being upset because they won't name one...

  13. #133
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    snl, I am a small sideliner and totally treatment free, the only thing that I have done other than watch my bees die from mites the last two years is to try some vsh queens a few years back, and they died, I should say collapsed, just like all the others did. They didn't even last 7 months. I have thought seriously about treating out of disgust, but even though I have had disastrous losses I am still commited to remaining treatment free for the same reasons Michael Bush has. After having to practically start over every year with new bees the last several years, I am now going to try it Michael Bush's way, and not just his, but others here on the forum doing the same thing with success. Yes, its going to cost me even more money changing over to narrow frames, small cell, and northern adapted queens, but what other choice do I have if I don't want to treat?

    Don't you think we use too many chemicals in this country already? Even though OA and some of the other treatments may keep bees alive longer comparatively speaking, how do we know that we aren't creating other problems (the types of problems MB speaks of) for the bees that we don't see, its like robbing Peter to pay Paul.

  14. #134
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Michael Bush has already answered with his actions. Started over more than once. More convincing than a verbal answer to me.

    Next question will be; What would you do if you had the last bees on earth and mites were killing them?

    I do not think he will buy OA or endorse it. But good luck trying.
    4 yrs, Peak 14, back to zip, T lite; godfather to brother's 3.

  15. #135
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltybee View Post
    Next question will be; What would you do if you had the last bees on earth and mites were killing them?
    Salty, I'd treat......not sure with what as I don't know what would be available to treat with at that time. Maybe some "silver bullet" would have arrived by then.
    I do not think he will buy OA or endorse it. But good luck trying.
    Salty, was never trying to get MB to buy or endorse OA treatment. He has already tried it prior to going TF. I envy him his great success on TF. TF just does not work for me and evidently many others. However, just as we ask speakers in a conference (and BS is really an online conference) questions, I was just posing the question to him, one BS member to another... not as a vendor because we are both vendors here on BS.

  16. #136
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    And you are both selling a great product. One most of us need for now and the other one everyone wants in their size, but it just does not fit yet.
    4 yrs, Peak 14, back to zip, T lite; godfather to brother's 3.

  17. #137
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Michael Bush is a vendor here? What does he sell?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  18. #138
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Books. See the ad in the right margin of this page.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  19. #139
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    I'am not trying to sway anyone one way or the other but take time to watch a documentry that was made i think in 2012 called More than Honey.It sheds a little light on the plight of bees.In the end everyone has to make his on decision.

    www.poorvalleybeefarm.com

  20. #140
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    No need to buy the book. It's all on my website for free.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

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