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  1. #61
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    Oct 2009
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    Wilmington, DE, USA
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Yes, oxalic acid can be hazardous if not handled properly. Interestingly enough, the formic acid used in the Mite Away Quick Strips, an approved miticide in the US, is also hazardous: http://www.miteaway.com/uploads/1/4/...ust_9_2012.pdf

  2. #62
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    May 2011
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    Algoma dr. Ontario, Canada
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    My experience using both of them is that it is much easier to stay out of the way of the oxalic acid vapor as it is a visible cloud. The oxalic acid I used was a fairly coarse powder looking very much like table sugar. It is not dusty, in fact after you have the top off a few times it gets to have a rather damp and clumpy handling characteristic. You have to really stick your nose into the container to even smell it at all. Now once it gets up to temperature in the vaporizer and starts to gas off its white cloud, it is a totally different beast, smell wise! Very acrid and the first hint of it gives you the head jerk reaction. You have no reason to be that close to it though as 20 foot electrical leads are not a problem; you don' make the electrical connection at the vaporizer end. After the several minute heat time the evaporator has no more acid or fumes coming from. Zip!

    I would dismiss the crack pipe type makeshifts, since they put you right in the muzzle blast. That definitely is a bad news way of vaporizing oxalic acid.

  3. #63
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by knute View Post
    "Some years ago right after Canada approved oxalic for general use, the ABF bought the documents including all the tests and trials they had used and made our own application to the EPA. It was not accepted partly because they would not accept Canadian tests, and partly because the ABF did not plan on selling the pre-dosed product. Normally, a registrant would apply for approval of a proprietary product that would be sold in a form and a dose as registered and labeled. Eventually, the ABF turned all the materials over to Cook and Beals as they had an interest in developing a dosed package. Last time I checked, EPA had not responded. Interestingly enough, during the negotiations to register APIVAR, EPA offered to register oxalic if we would drop our AMITRAZ request. But nothing came of that since the registrant ARYSTA wanted to sell their patented product, and had no ownership of oxalic. The bee industry said to go ahead and register oxalic please because it is an effective tool, but commercial beekeepers could not be dependent on it alone. Anyway, the application is in place, and EPA will respond in their own time."
    There is a philosophical problem here, that of restricting treatments available, ie, offering to allow OA if Amitraz is disallowed.

    When varroa arrived in my country we had the advantage of seeing what had happened in the rest of the world and the problem of varroa getting resistant to treatment. Our own governing body therefore, off it's own bat and based on research supplied from the interested groups, decided to allow many mite treatments, OA being one of them. (Coumaphos was not). In the discussion document it was noted that problems overseas had a twofold cause. Treatments were often restricted to a very small number of types meaning they were used repeatedly until they didn't work and then another would be introduced which again would be used until it didn't work. This situation encouraged the illegal use of products which means they are not being used by label and also leads to problems such as resistance.

    Learning from this, our own governing body made many products available and encouraged beekeepers to use all of them and rotate them. Because of this, resistant mites are almost non existent in my country. The only exception being one area where a group of beekeepers doggedly used Apistan each six months, every time, until just recently they have found resistance. Their own stupidity in my opinion.

    If this philosophy were applied, the US EPA ought to be looking at the big picture, ie, enabling the means to kill mites and keep doing so for the longest possible time. The nature of a regulating body, and it's a natural progression, is they can come to see their job as finding reasons to say no to things. Wrong basic premise when dealing with varroa.

    There is no sensible reason to say no to OA. If allowed legally, when it is used, something else is not being used. There is more alternation between products, and less likelihood of immunity developing, or even being maintained if it does.

    2 cents from the other side of the planet!
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Mirabel, Québec, Canada
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    456

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    That's the problem here in the U.S., it doesn't come with application instructions/warnings.
    The application instructions are very easy to find online.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    This Swiss government site offers considerable "official" information on oxalic acid treatment in hives, including a version in the English language:

    http://www.agroscope.admin.ch/imkere...x.html?lang=en

    One of the documents available includes a study on operator safety when applying oxalic acid to hives, including using the vaporization method. The conclusion of the study ...

    Of course, appropriate safety measures need to be used. Click the link for more details.
    Indeed, such as wearing a mask, protecting your eyes, and protecting your skin. Having many years ahead of me, I personally did not hesitate to get all the protective equipment required. Breathing in acid is never good for you, regardless of how natural it may be.
    www.apisrustica.com (French-only website) Bee Breeding: Canadian nuclei & queens
    www.facebook.com/Apis.rustica

  5. #65
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    Dec 2008
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    Solano, California, USA
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    1,506

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    Can you show one case where someone was harmed vaporizing OA?
    Daniel, I personally don't know of any. Here is the basis of my concern: I can tell you that when I went to Apimondia in Vancouver in 99 I ran across a few northern Canadian prairie guys who talked about another beek in their area who was on the oxygen tank as a result of burning his lungs with one of these devices in conjunction with the use of OA. This was long enough into Varroa that I could believe them. It was in the times what I would consider the infancy of OA use for Varroa control. No one in the US was using OA acid at that period of time as the other chems were still "working." I had no reason to disbelieve their claim. My point which the purchaser of this "AD" has deleted in my post was that since the use of this product is known to be unsafe and also unregistered in the US the seller is setting himself up for a big lawsuit if anyone gets hurt as a result. He can delete my posts but I will continue to warn people of the care that needs to be used with this product.

  6. #66
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    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    1,256

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Just a heads-up snl, I find your deletion of posts you don't like to be off-putting.

    I'd probably end up with a better impression of the product if critical posts were allowed to stand... I wouldn't have that little suspicion that there's something being covered up.

    Anyway, that said, it's my opinion that if you're going to treat, OA is probably the least problematic of the successful treatments.
    Ray--1 year, 7 hives, TF

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Just a heads-up snl, I find your deletion of posts you don't like to be off-putting.

    I'd probably end up with a better impression of the product if critical posts were allowed to stand...
    I have no problem at all with critical posts. Using OA in ANY form is very controversial. It is when the attacks become personal, rather than respond and start a "who's bigger" match that takes away from the issue discussed, I just delete.
    Last edited by snl; 01-21-2014 at 06:01 PM.
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the Varrox Mite Killing
    OA Vaporizer "One of the highest ranked" by R. Oliver

  8. #68
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    Sep 2011
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    Reno, NV
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Honey 4 all, Miss application would apply to any product equally so if your rules applied equally no product would be approved. I also suspect that even if this one individual did harm themselves with OA specifically. Which I highly doubt is true. then they would have harmed themselves with the application of any product. And most likely did. Thousands of people get hurt or even killed mis handling automobiles every day.we do not ban them as a result.

    Sorry but the entire argument is not to me reasonable or rational. Even if you are correct and people could get hurt. Potential harm is not a reason to prevent something. Not in the context of applying it. now having something added to food they are eating is another issue.

    On an issue I have problems with for similar reason. I believe the discussion of making your own equipment should be banned on this group and that it not being recommended be the official statement of this group. Not only is there not enough information on how to safely operate shop equipment. outright dangerous methods are recommended and demonstrated.

    So I offer that as how you cannot be responsible for the actions of others. It is not reasonable. That you might hurt yourself in the shop is no reason for me to not tell you how to make something in the shop. I am also not responsible for your knowledge in how to do those things safely.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Honey-4-All View Post
    Daniel, I personally don't know of any. Here is the basis of my concern: I can tell you that when I went to Apimondia in Vancouver in 99 I ran across a few northern Canadian prairie guys who talked about another beek in their area who was on the oxygen tank as a result of burning his lungs with one of these devices in conjunction with the use of OA. This was long enough into Varroa that I could believe them. It was in the times what I would consider the infancy of OA use for Varroa control. No one in the US was using OA acid at that period of time as the other chems were still "working." I had no reason to disbelieve their claim. My point which the purchaser of this "AD" has deleted in my post was that since the use of this product is known to be unsafe and also unregistered in the US the seller is setting himself up for a big lawsuit if anyone gets hurt as a result. He can delete my posts but I will continue to warn people of the care that needs to be used with this product.
    Honey-4-All....
    It's one thing to make your point about safety, it is a issue we all can agree on. You must use adequate protection when using this product along with many, many other products. I've said that over and over and it's mentioned on my website and also in the video that demonstrates its use.

    Surely the individual you don't know but have heard about was NOT wearing protection otherwise he would not have been injured. However in this post and your previous post (deleted), you overstep the courtesy line on warnings and make it personal.

    I'm sure your mother taught you better than that...
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the Varrox Mite Killing
    OA Vaporizer "One of the highest ranked" by R. Oliver

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Solano, California, USA
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    1,506

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    I thoroughly agree with snl and daniel that oa kills mites well if not very well. It can also be said to be one of the safest miticides from a human food chain perspective that any of us can use on bees. I also agree that to to use anything ( saws. airplanes or just plain old pencils) in an unsafe manner it is unwise and imprudent.

    My warning to SNL which he deleted ( edited) was that I think he is opening a wide gap in his legal defense if someone sues him after that person uses his product in an illegal manner ( which it is in the US) which he advocates quite clearly in his sales material as well as on beesource which he is also using as a sales lead.

    Is it possible the EPA is withholding registration because of human safety issues?Yes. Is that likely? .... I doubt it at this point although its a plausible argument. I don't know....

    Right now there is no "label" on how to apply this product in a safe and legal manner. (Although many are doing it) To advocate doing so off label while selling his associated equipment under a clear pretense that his products sale is sold specifically to facilitate an illegal application is just plain unwise from a business standpoint. If someone serves a summons to the responsible person doing these sales I sure hope they have a better defense than I could come up with.
    Last edited by Honey-4-All; 01-21-2014 at 09:21 AM. Reason: punctuation

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Honey-4-All View Post
    Right now there is no "label" on how to apply this product in a safe and legal manner.
    Not sure exactly what you mean by "label." There are instructions that come with every vaporizer as to how to apply this product in a safe manner. The legality of using it I leave to each beekeeper. The many commercial beekeepers using it also have the same dilemma. Treat with an effective, cheap, safe miticide or risk losing your bees.

    The choice is ultimately..............yours.
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the Varrox Mite Killing
    OA Vaporizer "One of the highest ranked" by R. Oliver

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    >why are YOU not using it?

    Are you sure you want to ask this question?

    o I don't want to kill the microbes with the dramitic shift in pH (more than 8,000 kinds of microbs)
    o I don't want to kill all the other benign fauna in the hive (160 kinds of mites, many insects etc.)
    o I don't have a Varroa problem to solve

    What is oxalic labeled for as a pesticide? I wasn't aware of any label. That is not at all helpful as that does actually make it "off label" use for Varroa. If there was no product with it labeled as a pesticide one could make the argument that you are not violating the label since there isn't one...

    >Thus, based on the presented data, a commercial apiarist could use oxalic acid treatments during the whole year 40 hours a week without damaging his health.

    I have no doubt they COULD. The question is, will they. A wise person wouldn't inhale it more than once... but there are some foolish people...

    This IR-4 stuff is interesting. I was not aware of an alternate path to certification. I'm glad to see Bt on the list as well...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  13. #73
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    Mar 2013
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    Menlo Park, CA, USA
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    71

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    I hadn't heard of IR-4 until you mentioned it. Interesting!

    http://ir4.rutgers.edu/Biopesticides...istrations.pdf

    There's a pending application for oxalic acid...

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    From Michael Bush.. Why not use Oxalic Acid.
    Are you sure you want to ask this question?
    Answer: Of course, everyone needs as much information as possible to make an informed decision.

    I don't have a Varroa problem to solve.
    Answer: You are indeed fortunate but in the minority. Many of us do have a varroa problem and need assistance in many forms to combat it. OA is just part of the arsenal, albeit a growing major player in that arsenal.
    A wise person wouldn't inhale it more than once... but there are some foolish people...
    Answer: No comment.......
    I don't want to kill the microbes with the dramitic shift in pH (more than 8,000 kinds of microbs)
    I don't want to kill all the other benign fauna in the hive (160 kinds of mites, many insects etc.)
    Answer: None of us want to kill anything beneficial in the hive given the choice.... a choice we don't always have if we wish to save the hive. It is the beekeepers choice to choose the lesser of many evils. Many, many here in the US and worldwide have chosen OA.


    Last edited by snl; 01-21-2014 at 05:05 PM.
    http://OxaVap.com Your source for the Varrox Mite Killing
    OA Vaporizer "One of the highest ranked" by R. Oliver

  15. #75
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    Aug 2002
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    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    I would still like to know what pest is oxalic labeled for as a pesticide? If it is, that changes the legal status as "the label is the law" comes into effect. I was hoping they wouldn't do that. I'm actually afraid they may label it for use dribbling and then vaporization would be off label. I hate to see that as I think vaporization is the lesser of the two evils...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Why would you fear the worst? Seriously, do you have any actual reason to think they would approve one over the other? Why not both?

    You have given me an idea on something to follow up on. Not so much what OA is approved for. But what is approved to dealing with mites? And what is in it.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  17. #77
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    Dec 2008
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    SOMERSET, ENGLAND
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    o I don't want to kill the microbes with the dramitic shift in pH (more than 8,000 kinds of microbs)
    Michael, what is the dramatic shift of pH within a hive from normal, caused by a sublimation treatment of oxalic acid, and what microbes are killed, would be interesting to know, do you know of a research paper that can be viewed, specifically to do with sublimating oxalic, especially as oxalic is a natural ingrediant of honey and added to by the bees, and with sublimation they are not likely to be ingesting it, unlike the trickle method where they certainly do.

  18. #78
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    Menlo Park, CA, USA
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    I would still like to know what pest is oxalic labeled for as a pesticide? If it is, that changes the legal status as "the label is the law" comes into effect. I was hoping they wouldn't do that. I'm actually afraid they may label it for use dribbling and then vaporization would be off label. I hate to see that as I think vaporization is the lesser of the two evils...
    There are no currently EPA approved pesticides containing oxalic acid as an active ingredient, although there apparently are pesticides that include oxalic acid as an "inert ingredient" to chelate calcium. There used to be a pesticide that contained oxalic acid as an active ingredient, but the EPA registration for it was cancelled in 1994 for non-payment. See: www.epa.gov/opprd001/inerts/oxalicacid.pdf

  19. #79
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    >Michael, what is the dramatic shift of pH within a hive from normal, caused by a sublimation treatment of oxalic acid, and what microbes are killed

    Any shift in pH changes what microbes live and what microbes die, but sublimating it pretty much exposes all surfaces to a very low pH (high acidity). Formic, which is similar in pH to oxalic, is often used to sterilize surfaces in a lab. I'm concerned about the entire balace of the ecology of the colony, not just one microbe or another. Granted, dribbling is probably worse as it is in syrup and probably gets, not only in the gut of the bee (where many of the beneficial microbes reside) but into the bee bread (where the microbes are essential to the fermentation of pollen to make bee bread). It's possible that sublimation just kills it on the surface and not in the bee bread itself. Very few studies have been done on microbes at all. Serious interest in them is recent. So I don't know of any that are looking at the effects of organic acid treatments on them.

    >would be interesting to know, do you know of a research paper that can be viewed, specifically to do with sublimating oxalic, especially as oxalic is a natural ingrediant of honey and added to by the bees, and with sublimation they are not likely to be ingesting it, unlike the trickle method where they certainly do.

    Certainly it is naturally occuring in many foods, but not at the concentrations that the fumes are in vaporizing it in the hive. That, of course, is why it's effective at killing mites. Changing pH is even more effective at killing microbes.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    I believe it is more accurate to say that changing Ph changes what microbes are present. I also have a problem with that being presented like it is a bad thing. An unhealthy hive indicates it has unhealthy microbes just as a healthy hive would indicate it has healthy microbes. I start with that as may basic starting line. so if you have a hive in need of treating. I simply assume and will not debate that the microbes need to be destroyed. The evidence convinces me otherwise. and the issue is settled for me.

    I can pile up a bunch of leaves. i doing so I have in fact altered many thing including Ph to a degree that microbes will be both increased and destroyed. the net results will lbe that the leaves compost. Now is this good or bad. If all it destroys is the leaves it si good in my opinion. if that same process spreads to the bottom boards of my hives is is bad. same microbial action. two completely different opinons about it. If your hive is sick it has the wrong microbes.

    Now what if your hive is well and you treat it anyway. did you just kill the right microbes? Maybe, maybe not. I find in actually practice healthy hives that are not treated will not remain healthy. the microbes cannot hold their own anyway. destroying them in inconsequential. they are inadequate in the first place. They will be overran with unhealthy microbes eventually so the destruction is only a matter of it being natural or intentional.

    Now if you have hives that never get unhealthy it is another issue. You have healthy microbes that are holding their own and messing with that becomes a far more serious issue. I do not see many beekeepers having to face that problem.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

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