Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 305

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    2,116

    Default Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    With and all the positive feedback on its use and so many commercial beekeepers using OA in a dribble and others using it in a vaporized, why are YOU not using it?

    It's pennies per treatment whether used in a dribble or vaporized (outside the initial cost of the vaporizer). Well below the costs of other treatments.

    Again, unless you've remarkable bees that resist both the varroa mite itself and all viruses the mites bring into the hive OR have decided to go the treatment free route,
    why are you not using it?
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for the Varrox Vaporizer, "One of the highest ranked" by R. Oliver

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Mirabel, Québec, Canada
    Posts
    423

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    For a lot of americans, it's not a registered pesticide, and thus illegal to use as such. A pity for them, really.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Dominic, what's even stranger is that the CHC sent the ABF the required materials for OA registration in the U.S. . But, the ABF never followed through. So, Canada did try to help U.S. beekeepers to use OA for treatments.

    "The Canadian Honey Council has provided the American Beekeeping Federation their registration data packet to expedite the registration of OA in the USA. As a result, the recommended concentration of the OA solution that will appear on the US label will most likely be identical to the Canadian label. "

    (Aliano, 2009)

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Menlo Park, CA, USA
    Posts
    58

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    The failure to follow through wasn't the fault of the ABF- it's the EPA dragging their feet.

    I asked the ABF about this a few months ago, and received this reply:

    "Some years ago right after Canada approved oxalic for general use, the ABF bought the documents including all the tests and trials they had used and made our own application to the EPA. It was not accepted partly because they would not accept Canadian tests, and partly because the ABF did not plan on selling the pre-dosed product. Normally, a registrant would apply for approval of a proprietary product that would be sold in a form and a dose as registered and labeled. Eventually, the ABF turned all the materials over to Cook and Beals as they had an interest in developing a dosed package. Last time I checked, EPA had not responded. Interestingly enough, during the negotiations to register APIVAR, EPA offered to register oxalic if we would drop our AMITRAZ request. But nothing came of that since the registrant ARYSTA wanted to sell their patented product, and had no ownership of oxalic. The bee industry said to go ahead and register oxalic please because it is an effective tool, but commercial beekeepers could not be dependent on it alone. Anyway, the application is in place, and EPA will respond in their own time."

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Dominic, what's even stranger is that the CHC sent the ABF the required materials for OA registration in the U.S. . But, the ABF never followed through. So, Canada did try to help U.S. beekeepers to use OA for treatments.

    "The Canadian Honey Council has provided the American Beekeeping Federation their registration data packet to expedite the registration of OA in the USA. As a result, the recommended concentration of the OA solution that will appear on the US label will most likely be identical to the Canadian label. "

    (Aliano, 2009)

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,991

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by knute View Post
    "Some years ago right after Canada approved oxalic for general use, the ABF bought the documents including all the tests and trials they had used and made our own application to the EPA. It was not accepted partly because they would not accept Canadian tests, and partly because the ABF did not plan on selling the pre-dosed product. Normally, a registrant would apply for approval of a proprietary product that would be sold in a form and a dose as registered and labeled. Eventually, the ABF turned all the materials over to Cook and Beals as they had an interest in developing a dosed package. Last time I checked, EPA had not responded. Interestingly enough, during the negotiations to register APIVAR, EPA offered to register oxalic if we would drop our AMITRAZ request. But nothing came of that since the registrant ARYSTA wanted to sell their patented product, and had no ownership of oxalic. The bee industry said to go ahead and register oxalic please because it is an effective tool, but commercial beekeepers could not be dependent on it alone. Anyway, the application is in place, and EPA will respond in their own time."
    There is a philosophical problem here, that of restricting treatments available, ie, offering to allow OA if Amitraz is disallowed.

    When varroa arrived in my country we had the advantage of seeing what had happened in the rest of the world and the problem of varroa getting resistant to treatment. Our own governing body therefore, off it's own bat and based on research supplied from the interested groups, decided to allow many mite treatments, OA being one of them. (Coumaphos was not). In the discussion document it was noted that problems overseas had a twofold cause. Treatments were often restricted to a very small number of types meaning they were used repeatedly until they didn't work and then another would be introduced which again would be used until it didn't work. This situation encouraged the illegal use of products which means they are not being used by label and also leads to problems such as resistance.

    Learning from this, our own governing body made many products available and encouraged beekeepers to use all of them and rotate them. Because of this, resistant mites are almost non existent in my country. The only exception being one area where a group of beekeepers doggedly used Apistan each six months, every time, until just recently they have found resistance. Their own stupidity in my opinion.

    If this philosophy were applied, the US EPA ought to be looking at the big picture, ie, enabling the means to kill mites and keep doing so for the longest possible time. The nature of a regulating body, and it's a natural progression, is they can come to see their job as finding reasons to say no to things. Wrong basic premise when dealing with varroa.

    There is no sensible reason to say no to OA. If allowed legally, when it is used, something else is not being used. There is more alternation between products, and less likelihood of immunity developing, or even being maintained if it does.

    2 cents from the other side of the planet!
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    2,116

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominic View Post
    For a lot of americans, it's not a registered pesticide....
    Unfortunately it is a registered pesticide NOT an approved mitecide
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for the Varrox Vaporizer, "One of the highest ranked" by R. Oliver

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    Unfortunately it is a registered pesticide NOT an approved mitecide
    Let's face it. It's registered as a toilet cleaner.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
    Posts
    2,116

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    It's registered as a toilet cleaner.
    That also happens to be a very effective mitecide that it used worldwide as such.....
    Last edited by snl; 01-19-2014 at 08:36 PM.
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for the Varrox Vaporizer, "One of the highest ranked" by R. Oliver

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Maquoketa, Iowa, USA
    Posts
    4

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    What are the pros and cons of the dribble method vs. vaporizing? Obviously, there is the cost of the vaporizer, but beyond that, what other advantages or disadvantages are there that make one method of application preferable over the other?

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,991

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by EasternIowaBees View Post
    What are the pros and cons of the dribble method vs. vaporizing? Obviously, there is the cost of the vaporizer, but beyond that, what other advantages or disadvantages are there that make one method of application preferable over the other?
    Vaporising is better for the bees, but the dribble method is a whole lot easier for the beekeeper especially if there are a lot of hives involved.

    When OA is vaporised into a hive it forms a vapour which distributes through the hive and condenses on everything, bees included. So everything has this fine acidic coating that kills mites, there is nowhere for them to hide, unless they are inside a brood cell. A vapour treatment done right will typically kill mites at a similar level to what Apistan would have to non resistant mites, for around 7 days. After that the kill rate rapidly drops off.

    A dribble is different. OA is mixed with water, and only works if there is also sugar in the mix. It is squirted over the combs and gets spread around and also kills mites, however a lot more OA has to be put into a hive than if a vapour was used. Because the mix contains sugar, it is inevitable the bees will store some of it, and consume some of it. This can result in stomach problems for the bees, and if in food fed to brood, can kill larvae soon as they hatch from the egg, hence a winter OA dribble is known to have possible repercussions on spring brood nest development.

    The reason a dribble rather than vapour is favoured by most commercial beekeepers, is the simplicity. A large batch can be mixed and a guy simply walks around with any kind of device that can squirt a measured amount of liquid each hive is treated in seconds, where a vapour treatment can be minutes per hive.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    rensselaer, ny, USA
    Posts
    530

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    So, if using the dribble method (OA + water/sugar syrup) may result in bees ingesting OA with somewhat detrimental effects on their digestion, then what would happen if I use OA vaporization in a hive where I have already placed sugar bricks - or for that matter if the bees have open honey cells that they are in the rpocess of consuming.

    Should I take the bricks out beforehand - I can picture the ding-dong food-riot that would cause - but if I could get them out, how would I avoid any OAV-derived crystals from landing on any open honey in the cells? This is still puzzling me.

    And as a side query on the OAV topic, does anyone know the gram to volume (in teaspoons or ml) conversion rate for OA? I see the dosing rate quoted in grams, but that's not a convenient range for me to use.

    Enj.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,991

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Pretty certain it would condense onto the sugar bricks & get consumed, yes. Me, I'd temporarily remove them.

    Bear in mind, this will happen to any hive with unsealed honey. As an example I once thought it would be a good idea to vaporise some new swarms before they had sealed brood so all the mites would be exposed to it. Sounded like a good idea and it did in fact kill pretty much all the mites. BUT, what also happened was that being new swarms, they were building new comb and filling them with nectar, the whole hive was filled with nectar. The OA went onto it, and for weeks all I could find in those hives was newly laid eggs, soon as they hatched they died. It was literally weeks before the OA concentration in the feed was low enough that they could actually raise some live brood from those eggs, it was a great lesson.

    I do OA vaporising it is a wonderful tool, and cheap. But having learned the hard way I'm now very aware of the other factors in the hive before I'll do it.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,071

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    > does anyone know the gram to volume (in teaspoons or ml) conversion rate for OA?

    Randy Oliver has extensive information about using oxalic acid against varroa on his site. The page linked below is regarding the correct proportions for the "dribble" method, but coincidentally offers an oxalic acid grams to teaspoon conversion:
    Discarding the outlier (spoon was probably not leveled off) the average value is 3.7g oxalic acid per teaspoon.

    http://scientificbeekeeping.com/oxal...eatment-table/
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    SOMERSET, ENGLAND
    Posts
    335

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    The reason a dribble rather than vapour is favoured by most commercial beekeepers, is the simplicity. A large batch can be mixed and a guy simply walks around with any kind of device that can squirt a measured amount of liquid each hive is treated in seconds, where a vapour treatment can be minutes per hive.
    OT, regards time, it depends on the vaporizing equipment used, the vaporizer i use only takes 25 seconds per treatment, this is continuous from hive to hive, ie no cooling down between hives, no opening of hive, just a small quarter inch hole drilled in the side,and faster than the trickle method.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,991

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Hmm.. Yes I saw one of those things advertised but out of my price league. Would you mind sharing what you use, cost, etc?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,991

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Oops, just realised this is a sponsors thread, want to start a different threads on it Beekuk?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Solano, California, USA
    Posts
    1,355

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    With and all the positive feedback on its use and so many commercial beekeepers using OA in a dribble and others using it in a vaporized, why are YOU not using it?

    It's pennies per treatment whether used in a dribble or vaporized (outside the initial cost of the vaporizer). Well below the costs of other treatments.

    Again, unless you've remarkable bees that resist both the varroa mite itself and all viruses the mites bring into the hive OR have decided to go the treatment free route,
    why are you not using it?
    Something here smells like a sales pitch. Anyone else getting the same whiff of acid burning I do? OMG.......... my lungs.... I can't breath. SNL responds "Then wear your mask as prescribed....."
    Last edited by snl; 01-20-2014 at 07:43 AM.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    2,955

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Honey-4-All View Post
    Something here smells like a sales pitch. Anyone else getting the same whiff of acid burning I do? OMG.......... my lungs.... I can't breath.

    Might be a great product that helps kill mites like a sledge hammer but until OA is legal and registered in the US I think anyone who values their personal or business assets is a blame fool to sell anything that promotes or facilitates its use. When a jury is asked to rule in your favor when some nut forgets to put his respirator on when using your machine I sure hope you have a great defense they will believe. $$$ bye bye birdie. You are selling them for the express purpose of acidifying mites aren't you?
    Can you show one case where someone was harmed vaporizing OA?
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Grosse Ile, Michigan, USA
    Posts
    2,863

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    Lets talk about the residue in the hive from doing OA treatments instead of all the happy talk about how well it works. Can anyone answer to that with any degree of certainty?

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,991

    Default Re: Why not use Oxalic Acid?

    I don't think anyone can, I've seen the subject raised before and nobody could say with any certainty that there were any harmful chemicals left.

    For me, all I can say is I use the cheapo "dirty" OA, ie, not medical grade just the stuff used for bleaching timber decks. Probably got a bit of dirt in it, don't know.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads