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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,573

    Default Re: Little Worried - Need some opinions.

    understood 36. adding a frame with eggs will tell you whether or not that queen is still good. if they start making queen cells it means she is no longer viable. if that's the case, you will need drones to get the new queen mated. if it was mites, and if this colony was less resistant than the others, it may not be a good one to raise queens from. i don't blame you for trying, it will be good experience.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Stockton, CA
    Posts
    66

    Default Re: Little Worried - Need some opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post

    I wonder about EFB, but usually you see waxy larvae casts and a more random shot pattern to the brood. It will cause sudden die-offs.
    I have some terra-patty mix that I think I will mix up and put in all my hives in light of your suspicion.

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Greenbrae, CA, USA
    Posts
    335

    Default Re: Little Worried - Need some opinions.

    Tristan - I feel your pain - One of my four hives here in Marin looked exactly like yours a week or so ago while the other three are doing very well. I took one frame from a strong hive that had capped brood and lots of workers and moved it and the bees from the weak hive into a nuc a week ago. Checked on it today and it wasn't doing well - I couldn't find the queen and no signs of new eggs or larvae. I did see a few drones, so presumably it's possible to make a new queen now.

    I hope you can save it but suspect it may be tough. Certainly be careful not to deplete your strong hives too much to try to save it. After all, we still may get a winter here and it's better to get thru it with strong hives that you can split in the spring than to lose another one trying to save this one.

    I treated my strong hives with OA today. I use a simple homemade copper pipe with a see-thru box that goes on top. Kind of funny to see bees that get "frosted" with the OA as it crystalizes on them. Doesn't seem to bother them much.

    Let us know if you're able to save the hive. If not, at least you have drawn comb and stores for a spring split.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Mt Juliet TN USA
    Posts
    136

    Default Re: Little Worried - Need some opinions.

    Most of the time when a colony gets that weak you will do more harm to the stronger colony taking resources then good to the weak one. Especially this time of the year.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    KC, MO, USA
    Posts
    1,178

    Default Re: Little Worried - Need some opinions.

    Looks like EFB. Send a sample of comb for testing.

    Also do a sugar roll.

    Did you feed your bees Essential Oils?

    Check your other hive for spotty brood, If one of your hive has it others might also.

    terra-patty might help if you have enough bees for recovery.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Stockton, CA
    Posts
    66

    Default Re: Little Worried - Need some opinions.

    What is a sugar roll, and what essential oils do I feed them, and how do I feed them essential oils?

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Mirabel, Québec, Canada
    Posts
    423

    Default Re: Little Worried - Need some opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by shinbone View Post
    " If the bees are clustering, they probably aren't cleaning up the hive from OA crystals, which can accumulate and probably kill a lot of the bees. As for the poor brood patterns, I can only imagine what the odds of survival are for a larva in a cell filled with OA crystals."

    This seems like speculation on top of speculation on top of speculation. Anything to substantiate this statement?

    '
    Remember OA is not approved as a miticide in the US and your mileage with it (the effectiveness of it) may vary from the words of those who hope to make a profit on it."

    Lots of people who don't make a profit from OA report good results.

    I am not saying OA is a miracle treatment, but both of these quotes seem biased to me.
    I'd rather call it leads for discussions or hypothesis, but indeed, none of that must be assumed to be true.

    However, OA is an effective treatment, and I don't understand those who doubt it. All the studies I see state 95-96% efficacy. I can't seem to put any attachments, but if you look through these forums, someone shared a chart that showed OA dosage and mite & bee mortality. OA kills a lot of mites. It also kills bees. Recommended dosage kills almost all mites (95%), and less bees (25%). Double dosage kills slightly more mites (100% or 99.99%, hard to say) and a lot more bees (70%). OA might not be authorized in the states, but it is in Canada (or at least I assume so, since the government's telling us to use it), and the papers state to use a SINGLE (emphasis is mine) application in the fall or winter months when the hive is broodless, at 1g per deep (for vaporization). The table in question was for drippling, I believe, but OA is OA, however it is distributed in the hive. If you use three treatments in the same months, you are at best killing off a quarter of your hive three times in a row, killing 58% of the hive, assuming all of the OA crystals are cleaned up within less than a week. At worst, it's a triple dose, which is pretty much guaranteed to give 100% mortality.

    I want to stress, though, that I'm not putting aside the varroa hypothesis. But I think that we can all agree that hive failures are often multifactorial.

    After all, if OA could be effective and safe during brood period, I'm sure that those selling it would have made sure to mention it. Since they don't, and given the numbers from the study I'm looking at, I think it safe to assume that the kind of treatment the original poster tried is either ineffective or harmful, most probably both.
    Last edited by Dominic; 01-19-2014 at 05:17 PM. Reason: numbers

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Charles City, VA
    Posts
    76

    Default Re: Little Worried - Need some opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by tristan36 View Post
    OK... So.... Here's the plan (let me know if it is a dumb one).
    I have a hive in one deep that is pretty full of bees.
    1. I took a couple frames of brood out and shook the bees off (I wasn't able to find the queen, and the light is failing).
    2. I put an excluder on top of the deep and another deep on top of that.
    3. Put the brood frames in the top deep and surrounded them with empty comb frames (just to fill space).
    4. Covered it up.
    5. Hoping to be able to go out tomorrow once the temperature is over 60 degrees and get a frame of brood and nurse bees to strengthen the hive in question.

    Only thing I am worried about is that it will get down to 36 degrees tonight. Think enough bees will move up to cover and care for the brood frames?
    Need to be careful if you put a QE on with brood above. If the bees move up to cover the brood they can leave your queen behind killing her because of the cold.

    David

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    KC, MO, USA
    Posts
    1,178

    Default Re: Little Worried - Need some opinions.

    >What is a sugar roll,
    Do a search on powder sugar roll - basically you take 1/2 cup of bees (about 300) put them in a jar with powder sugar roll the jar several times, separate bees and sugar then count the mites in the sugar.

    >and what essential oils do I feed them
    essential oils can make your bees more vulnerable to disease, some put it in syrup

    In the pictures do I see dead larva in some cells that have not been capped yet? It's hard to tell but that what it looks like to me.

    Do you have picture of the brood from your other hives?

    Wash your tools and gloves (if it is EFB it is very contagious)
    If your hive fails don't let it get robbed out.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    3,011

    Default Re: Little Worried - Need some opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominic View Post
    Three times in a month? I never got around to actually using the vaporizer I bought, used other treatments instead last season, but isn't this excessive? Unless weaker doses were given, the OA might have burned a part of the colony, and the white flecks might be remaining OA crystals?
    Standard application for OAV is three applications 7 days apart. You are attempting to catch all brood cells while they are uncapped.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Posts
    166

    Default Re: Little Worried - Need some opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlowerPlanter View Post
    essential oils can make your bees more vulnerable to disease...
    Can you please give a reference for that statement? I use EO and that is the first time I have heard this. Just would like to know.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Washington County, Maine
    Posts
    2,896

    Default Re: Little Worried - Need some opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by bbrowncods View Post
    Can you please give a reference for that statement? I use EO and that is the first time I have heard this. Just would like to know.
    Michael Bush has written (and I believe given references) about some EOs having an impact on the makeup of gut bacteria in bees - I believe the research has shown that EOs can set the bees back in their ability to fight off some maladies. From my reading I gather that the effect is temporary, much like a person taking an antibiotic for a urinary infection needing to consume something like live yogurt to get their system back to normal. What the bees do to get back to normal I don't know.
    Master Beekeeper (EAS) and Master Gardener (U Maine CE) www.beeberrywoods.com

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Massillon, Ohio
    Posts
    3,413

    Default Re: Little Worried - Need some opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominic View Post
    After all, if OA could be effective and safe during brood period, I'm sure that those selling it would have made sure to mention it. Since they don't, and given the numbers from the study I'm looking at, I think it safe to assume that the kind of treatment the original poster tried is either ineffective or harmful, most probably both.
    If that's the case, then how do we explain the high number of success stories with those who use the exact same method as tristan? If we are going to make assumptions, I would assume that the treatments were either started too late, or something else might be in play.
    To everything there is a season....

  14. #34
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Durango, Colorado
    Posts
    161

    Default Re: Little Worried - Need some opinions.

    If you really want to try to save this weak hive, I would move the remaining bees to a nuc box and take a frame of brood with nurse bees from a strong hive and add that to the weak hive, along with other frames with brood from the existing hive. I would also offer them a 1/2 pollen patty and some syrup.

    The smaller living quarters will make it easier for them to keep warm. The brood will give the bees a shot in the arm and a reason to live. The pollen patty and syrup will make it easier for the weak population to feed the brood. If the queen is failing, you may see evidence of that if the bees begin to make a supercedure or emergency queen cell(s).

    While you are in there and moving everything to the nuc, look for frass at the bottom of the cells and signs of European Foulbrood.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    3,011

    Default Re: Little Worried - Need some opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew Dewey View Post
    What the bees do to get back to normal I don't know.
    This is an issue that you can claim a lot of things happen. and they absolutely true. they also do not matter.

    Think of it like mold on bread. IF you leave any bread long enough under the correct conditions and it will mold. you did not add the mold. the bakery did no add the mold the mold simply exists. and it exists everywhere at all times. Give ti the correct conditions and it will grow.

    The same is true for that vast variety of microscopic organism. the are simply there give them the correct conditions and they will increase.

    Now that they exists does not mean they are harmful or beneficial. they simply exist. Thew idea that you can wipe them out by an application of anything is pretty much ridiculous. it is like thinking you can eliminate mold from your kitchen by throwing out one loaf of bread. okay so that mold is gone. all the rest is doing just fine. So you throw out all the moldy bread. you will just bring mold back with the next loaf of bread.

    Not to mention that if your bees are sick all this micro flora has just demonstrated it's inadequacy. something better was needed. Elimination of that inadequate item is of no consequence. Plus you have to consider how quickly it will be restored even if you do damage it.

    In some cases it can be very drastic in most it is of no importance. I have never seen it established that any of it matter in bees.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    5,390

    Default Re: Little Worried - Need some opinions.

    To me, this thread is an exercise in futility. The weak colony is dead, or will be. Attempting to save it is a waste of resources. Good wood on bad. There comes a time when we have to admit defeat, and I think in this case the time has passed. Just my opinion.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Massillon, Ohio
    Posts
    3,413

    Default Re: Little Worried - Need some opinions.

    Michael, you are probably right in your analysis. I agree 100% that resources should not be stolen from other apparently thriving colonies at this time of the year in an attempt to save a dink. But new small scale beekeepers, even some that have been at it a while, have a hard time letting go and cutting their losses. It goes against the grain to admit defeat.

    Robbing resources from other colonies should be eliminated from consideration. But perhaps moving the colony into a nuc will satisfy the need to do something, but not at the expense of the other colonies.
    To everything there is a season....

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Sacramento,California,USA
    Posts
    3,698

    Default Re: Little Worried - Need some opinions.

    You showed six frame pictures, and from what I see on those six frames, that hive is almost starving Dead. The only stores I see is some traces of capped honey here and there at the edges. You adding two frames of brood above an excluder, frames that you had shaken off all the bees. This hive doesn't have enough bees to cover that brood, from what I see of the pics you posted, and the brood will most likey die the first night/day. If you want to save it, do reduce it to a nuc and give it feed, both syrup and pollen sub. Us an inner frame feeder and hope it does not cause it to get robbed out. Otherwise, as Michael said, this hive looks dead.
    “When one tugs at a single thing in nature, he finds it attached to the rest of the world.” – John Muir

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    SNOW SHOE PA USA
    Posts
    1,244

    Default Re: Little Worried - Need some opinions.

    Well I used OAV 5 times this past fall {AUG. thr OCT.} for the first time and I had great results . I treated my nucs and my DBL. deeps and I killed 1000s and 1000s of VARROA one hive had well over 10000 it was just crazy and that was after treating with fogging with FGMOL all spring and summer{does not work}. So I'm in OAV corner it work for me and I'm not trying to sell any thing.
    I even upped the two scoop cup dose to 2.5 nucs 1.5 no problems . Going in to winter had 13 nucs and 12 DBL. deeps and still do. So I say yay to OAV
    One treatment with no brood in the hive.
    Say hello to the bad guy!
    year five==== 31 hives==== T{OAV}

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