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Signs of swarm preparation?

20K views 64 replies 15 participants last post by  MattDavey 
#1 ·
The general consensus is that once a hive "decides" to swarm it is quite difficult to make it change it's mind.

So whatever you are going to do to prevent swarming sooner is probably better than later - so as to head it off before they go in that direction. At least that is the impression I am under.

This has been touched on in another thread - Simple Effective Swarm Management for Beginners? So - what are the signs to look for that it is time to do something?

Squarepeg said - "walt wright describes looking for a band of 'dry cells' between the brood and the open nectar and pollen. they may appear polished or they may have a very small amount of nectar in them. this indicates that the bees are expanding (opposite of backfilling) the broodnest. it's easy to see even for a beginner. if there are no open cells there, and if the bees are filling cells in the nest after brood emerges instead of getting them ready for more brood then swarm preps are well underway."

Mike Gilmore said - "There is a point prior to swarm prep when they will inspect their colony and find a LOT of new "capped" brood on several frames. The next inspection might find an explosion in population and many of those cells now empty. If at that point they notice some of the brood cells are being backfilled with nectar it's time for them to think about..."

These are both great insights - what other signs can we look for that it is time to take action to try to manage swarming?
 
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#3 ·
The general consensus is that once a hive "decides" to swarm it is quite difficult to make it change it's mind.
The preparation that the hive goes through is probably three weeks long or better starting with expansion. You don't want to stop expansion or you won't have any bees for the flow. In the heather land they let bees swarm and caught them with a net coming out of the hive. So there are a bunch of opinions on how to prevent hives from completing their swarm instinct. It is just a question of which one you favor or which one you want to try first. All things beekeeping is timing. Get it right you win, get it wrong you lose. Problem is timing is not always the same.
 
#7 ·
The preparation that the hive goes through is probably three weeks long or better starting with expansion. You don't want to stop expansion or you won't have any bees for the flow.
My experience has been a little different than what you described above. I've found that swarm preparation begins "after" a massive build up and expansion of the brood nest. Near the peak of brood build up is when I've noticed the initiation of backfilling of brood cells and brood nest contraction. That seems to be the beginning of the final stages of swarm preparation, and is when I like to start some type of intervention to stop the process. If not, a couple weeks later I will be looking at capped swarm cells.
 
#4 ·
True. But this thread is not actually intended to be about how to prevent swarms, but rather how to know when a hive is about to take that fork in the road - swarm/don't swarm. But, as we know the road to an internet food fight is paved with good intentions.

A "FOOD FIGHT!" icon would be handy at times. Just a suggestion.
 
#5 ·
It is often suggested that dandelion bloom is the time to add the first supers, which assuming that is true then the implication is that if you don't then swarm prep could be triggered.

Of course depending on weather they may or may not be able to even bring in early nectar. So if you see white wax like this:

it seems like that could an indication that nectar is available in excess of the day to day requirements - even if it is ealier than dandelion. Maybe maple, but the weather is unusually fine for gathering it in.

Does that make sense?
 
#8 ·
It is sounding like some are adding precautionary supers of drawn comb (and excluders?) before it is consistently warm enough to do invasive inspections. Do I have that right? What is the effect of placing supers with undrawn foundation (and no excluder)? Here we go from winter to summer with maybe a week long spring in between. Generally the shift in seasons happens just as Dandelions bloom locally - perhaps two/three weeks before Apple bloom.
 
#10 ·
sounds like it is much different here than what you experience in maine andrew. the juniper (red cedar) is already producing pollen here. i don't think the bees use it, but it means that the maples and elms are not too far behind. on the nice weather days in february, the bees are gathering lots of tree pollen and using that along with their overwintered honey stores to build their numbers back up. in march there is both pollen and nectar coming in and the colonies can get strong enough to swarm anywhere from late march to early april depending on the weather. that's why we have to add our supers, checkerboard, ect. by late february or so. there are some days here at that time are suitable for inspection, although it usually isn't necessary to do much more than to make sure the colony is queenright.

undrawn foundation in the supers is useless here in the early season. typically the bees will not start drawing new comb until after they swarm, (or have been prevented from swarming), which coincides with the beginning of our main flow. the exception is they will draw a foundationless frame if it is put into the broodnest.

somehow the bees have figured out that the flow is transient here and tend not to swarm once the main flow is underway. walt believes this strategy is to prevent a swarm from issuing too late only to find itself unable to establish before the onset of our summer dearth.
 
#9 ·
david, that new comb in your picture looks like drone comb and that it was drawn in the empty space in the rim you provided for the sugar. i'm guessing that photo was take earlier in the season and before i would be expecting to see swarms. perhaps the sugar provided the extra resources needed for them to draw that wax.

as to the signs, i think what is happening in the broodnest, expansion vs. contraction, is the best internal sign and one i will be paying a little closer attention to going forward.

another internal sign would be if the bees fail to move up into the next box and start capping honey at the tops of the frames in highest box they are working, especially if the next box up is empty comb and they appear to be ignoring it.

walt also does a good job describing external signs in terms of noting that peak swarming is related to the timing of certain blooms. my experience was virtually the same as his in that regard which is not surprising since our locations are close. since bloom times are more tied into weather patterns they may be more reliable than calendar time. i began more careful journaling of first blooms and swarm issues last year, and this could be recommended as something for beginners to do.
 
#11 ·
Thank you to those who started,and contributed, to this thread. For a new bee keeper it is great information...the next step will be applying it in the spring:)
 
#13 ·
Square peg - they do sometimes build some brace comb in the feed shim, but it is only that white when a flow of some kind is on - in my experience. That picture actually was a maple flow during the winter that wasn't a winter a couple back. They capped most of a super on it - very clear honey, very white wax. That comb was a pretty sure sign that it was time to take off the feed. Lots of early swarming that year - my first one issued on April fools day. Pretty appropriate all in all.
 
#14 ·
That was a crazy year for sure David! Having to look and mash cells in March.

once a hive hits 2 deeps worth of bees I take 2 excess frames of honey or pollen and replace with foundation or starter strips. This gets me new comb and helps give laying space in the new combs which (in my opinion) queens love to lay in. Then I place the honey supers on top.

I then check every week during swarm season for cells by tilting the brood chamber up and looking at the bottom of the combs. Takes just a minute.

Still have perfecting to do on it. It works for me though.
 
#15 ·
One of the fringe benefits of checkerboarding (CB) is not having to go down to the broadnest to verify no intent to swarm. No swarm intent can be seen at the top of the hive. The key to swarm prevention w/CB is the overhead storing of nectar. Pop the top and verify nectar being stored at the top. If you have too many hives to remember where the top of nectar storage was last week, mark that spot on the outside of the super with a permanent felt marker. This week, just look for increase, and add another super of drawn comb. If they are storing nectar at the top, they have no intent to swarm, and brood volume continues expand upward.

That's what CB is all about - diverting incoming nectar overhead and avoiding the swarm prep action of backfilling.

Walt
 
#17 ·
That's what CB is all about - diverting incoming nectar overhead and avoiding the swarm prep action of backfilling.

Walt
When have you seen the bees put it below? They always put it above and work their way down. It is a pretty simple concept. Once a hive becomes strong enough you need space above to store honey and space below so they don't swarm. If you are all about honey production then you under super. Harder to do and harder to keep up with what is going on and a lot more work.
 
#21 ·
When bees prepare to swarm they tend to avoid the combs. You than see the bees on the walls and in a deep floor clustering below the bottom of the frames. (Or in a fixed comb hive below the combs.) In observation hives you find many bees with their bellies turned to the window. See picture below. As said, they seem to avoid the combs.

If there are drones crowding on that bottom cluster the swarm is most likely to take of the same day.

Bellies turned to the window:


They stop any comb building. While in Spring and later in a flow they build new combs, they immediately stop to draw more combs a week or so before swarming.

A partially drawn comb (fixed comb hive, observation hive) that has been abandoned. A week before there were no bees on the window and a cluster around that comb.


With a deep floor you see something like this, a cluster below the combs:



That is "play cup", they are just playing. No real swarming attitudes.You see this by the rims of the cell/cup: the cup has a thick rim/seam.


Once the cell's rim/seam is thinned out, they are starting swarm preparations. You easily can differentiate between the thick and thin seams of the cell. If it is thinned, they start swarm preps.


Of course a capped queen cells tells you are too late. :wink:


Before swarming, the bees are really really busy. Just before swarming, they stop foraging and do seem much less busy. Workers hanging around the front entrance. Combs start to shine/sparkle, because nectar is put over all over the comb, including pollen stores. If the pollen in the combs sparkles, they started swarm preparations.

Also the bees respond different on knocking the hive's wall. Knock-knock and a long muttering answer means swarm preparations. A short hiss says, they are alright. I read this in the book of Eddie Woods. See: http://beedata.com/data2/listen/listenbees.htm And I found it to be true. You don't need a gadget for this. Just your knuckles.

You find scout bees hovering around houses, sheds and buildings - those are scout bees. Once 50 or more scouts hover around and walk into a swarm trap, the swarm most likely moves in within a day. So scout bees also indicate a swarm.

Just some of the observations I made.

Bernhard
 
#22 ·
I know in my hive they may have placed the nectar above the nest. but they did not put it at the tip of the hive. they worked there way up.

Since last year i have seen some things that make me wonder if i should not have kept more empty space just above the brood nest though. as the bees worked there way up they built a longer and longer band of solid honey or nectar between the main nest and where they where storing nectar. Keep in mind the brood nest stretched up through this space as well.

With all the discussion about side expansion this past year. I have been playing over in my mind some ideas that are a variation of both checkerboard and continued side expansion of the brood nest. Mainly my thinking centers around more attention being given to keepign empty space near the brood nest where ever it is. I imagine it might keep the bees aware that more building is still necessary. Just one more detail that may help keep the bees in the fill it up mode rather than the pack it up mode.

At one time I read a comment that directly claimed that one of the unique qualities of the Langstroth hives. is that for unknown reasons it will cause bees to work upward. In fact they tend to move upward rather than down when given the choice. I have seen this myself. Interesting little tid bit if nothing else.
 
#33 · (Edited)
With all the discussion about side expansion this past year. I have been playing over in my mind some ideas that are a variation of both checkerboard and continued side expansion of the brood nest. Mainly my thinking centers around more attention being given to keeping empty space near the brood nest where ever it is.
That is exactly what I have settled on, and it works great for me. I use all mediums, and try to keep the bulk of the brood in the bottom three boxes. As the brood nest begins to contract on the sides and expand upward into the supers, I start frame manipulation similar to what Michael Bush describes in great detail. (Opening the broodnest)

As the side frames begin to fill with honey in the bottom three boxes, I will start to remove them and they are placed in one of the supers above, checkerboarded with empty drawn comb. Empty drawn frames are then inserted into the broodnest, pushing the brood frames outward toward the sides of the box. Only one frame or two at a time per box, depending on the population. This keeps the brood nest a little wider in the lower boxes but gives the queen somewhere to continue to lay eggs. The checkerboarded frames in the supers keep overhead lanes of empty comb open.

It's a bit of work to keep up with it, but is well worth the effort. Later in the spring, after the main swarm season, empty undrawn frames can be inserted in the brood nest and new comb drawn. If they happen to draw a lot of drone cells, no big deal. They make good super frames.
 
#24 ·
great observations here, many thanks to all for contributing.

i have also noticed that a decrease in foraging and bees bearding at the entrance when other hives are not showing these signs may be indicators. the other thing is seeing what looks like a very large orientation flight and then the bees return to the hive, this is likely a 'practice' swarm indicating the possibility that the bees are ready to take off. i would expect however that signs inside the hive such as backfilling and queen cells would already be visible by this point.
 
#26 ·
I know only of one way to stop swarming and that is to remove the old queen. As a last resort.

Play cups do not count. I ignore them. If you break their play cups they start building more. First time they draw on the queen cells, I tear them down. Second time: tear down again. Third time they build swarm cells, I remove the old queen with three combs of brood and stores. Breaking all queen cells 7 days later except one. That's it. Such colonies are marked and not get used for further breeding. It is easy to select for less-swarming bees. But you do not have to disturb much of the swarm preparations in order to find out, which hive swarms easy and which hive does play but doesn't swarm. With less swarmy bees one or two times breaking cells is enough for them to stop swarming. It is all about good breeding.

A less-swarmy queen is a queen, that continues to lay eggs despite swarm preparations. Such queens are the best.

I have two bee colonies within my house (in the attic) which I do super as normal but don't do any swarm preventions. So those hives swarm and when they do, I know it is swarm time and I have to look closer to the other hives. I call'em "swarm barometer".

So I catch two swarms minimum each year. Best way I know of is to use a garden hose and water. So it is good to have the hives near the house. During that time of year I usually work in the yard or garden. Once the swarm is up in the air I sprinkle the swarm with cold water from the garden hose. This makes the swarm sit down immediately. I pick up the queen, cage her and hang the swarm into a tree. House them in the evening. Never had a swarm absconding the new home this way.
 
#27 ·
You know what would be really helpful - A timeline of indicators and possible preventative actions - starting way before swarm season like:

*First pollen and nectar becomes available - Checkerboard
*Dandelion Bloom - Install first honey supers
*Appearance of white wax in hives - ?
*Drone brood - ?
*Sudden appearance of much capped brood -
*Sudden population expansion and congestion -
*Signs of backfilling in broodnest - Split, open broodnest, etc...
*Queen cells - Remove queen and cut down all but one cell, split hive, run in circles, scream and shout, etc...
*Large numbers of bees issuing from hive - Throw a goodbye kiss, go get your swarm collection kit.

Just examples not actual advised courses of action.
 
#29 ·
Too much fiddling. The basic approach is supering early enough, keep ahead with supering and let all else roll by itself. Check for cells in time (when drones appear), don't split when you find the first queen cell. To early. Just break the cell one time, another time (checking 7 days later) and make a split with the old queen when they continue to draw queen cells the third time.

The less you do, the better. Good and timed supering is the best swarm prevention, the rest is genetics/breeding.
 
#28 ·
i just wanted to say thanks to you david for starting these threads and renewing the discussion regarding swarm prevention.

i think most of us are looking to show some bounty for the effort, and after seeing how much more honey a non-swarmed colony can make compared to a swarmed colony, this topic hits home for the majority here.

it's difficult to delineate a one size fits all method mostly because of the extreme variations in climate, differences in equipment choices, ect.

walt's recommendations are great for those running single deeps and smaller supers. for those with two or more deeps i think roland's method of moving capped brood above an excluder is time tested and reliable. for those running all mediums i would look at mike bush's recommendations on opening the broodnest.

and then when all else fails and the astute beekeeper finds that despite all preventative measures the colony is about the swarm, being prepared with empty equipment to make splits should be part of the plan.

for me it's not the end of the world if a few swarms get away. my hope is that they will boost the feral population around me and ultimately provide survivor drones for queen mating.

i am really looking forward to seeing how things go this spring for the many contributors that have joined this conversation. what i like most about beesource is being able to glean these tidbits of useful information that i can apply to my endeavors.
 
#30 ·
I am sure that you are correct, but many newer beekeepers don't have much if any comb for supering. Also, it seems that our genetics may be more swarm prone than yours - an awful lot of the breeding effort has gone into mite tolerance for quite a while.

Nonetheless - I have a hive in mind that was reasonably gentle, didn't swarm last year - despite being very large and strong - made a very good honey crop, and remained robust. If it makes it to spring I plan to rear queens from it.
 
#31 ·
Drones are not an indication for Swarm preparation as we have Drones at least 2 months before Swarm season here.

I believe the bees that are just hanging around, not appearing to be doing anything that Bernhard is talking about are Wax Makers in preparation. They have filled up on Nectar and it takes a few days for wax production to start. They are storing it up to build comb for the new site.

That's why Opening the Sides of the Broodnest is useful as a swarm prevention and not just for those who want to increase the amount of drawn comb. As it keeps them making wax, they can't store it up to swarm.

It is all about triggering wax production and then maintaining wax production into the main flow.


Steps:

1. Several weeks before swarm season, move each outside frame up into a new box and checkerboard them with new frames, directly above the Broodnest.

2. Insert a new frame on each outside edge of the Broodnest. (So that a Brood frame is only on one side of the new frame.)


3. Check them in 2-3 weeks and repeat if comb in the frames has been mostly drawn.

The new frames have only a strip of foundation as a guide. I would have no more than half a sheet of foundation on a new frame. There must be a HOLE close to the broodnest to trigger wax making before swarm season. Bees will often build only drone comb before swarm season if the frame is completely foundationless. But with a 1 inch foundation strip the frames typically ends up being about 2/3 worker to 1/3 drone comb.

It doesn't require much time to do and there is not need to go searching for queen cells or other indicators in the Broodnest. You just need to ensure that wax making is happening on those two new frames, on each outside edge of the Broodnest.


It can be done with hives that have wintered as 1 Deep, 2 Deeps, 1 Deep and 1 Medium, All mediums, or Nucs.

Give it a go.

More Information:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...-the-Broodnest

http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...warm-managment

http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...mple-Effective-Swarm-Management-for-Beginners

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?292359-Single-deep-swarm-management-confusion/
 
#34 ·
Drones are not an indication for Swarm preparation as we have Drones at least 2 months before Swarm season here.
Another good example of "one size fits all" not working in every area. Climate variations have a tremendous impact on bee behavior. This is one example. Two months before swarm preparation in my region the bees are still in worker brood build up. They have not even started to think about drones yet.

Every method needs to match your local conditions. It's trial and error. Matt's method might not work for me here, and what I do successfully may fail in his area.
 
#44 ·
Bernard, the only deep boxes I have are on the bottom as the brood box. everything else is mediums. I agree they seem to me to take to mediums faster than they will a deep because I started out with all deeps so I have tried that also. I still do not see them take to the next box by simply placing an empty box on tip like I do if it is checkerboarded. It makes enough difference that i had bees drawing foundation pre swarm and pre flow last spring something even Walt says will not happen.

I do think that drawing contributed to the failure of preventing swarms though. Just how and why I don't see other than it delays the storing of nectar. to many bees left setting in the hive holding onto nectar that has no place to go. To me it seems the bees start to compete with the queen for what space will be used for what. once they deny her space to lay. swarming prep takes a turn down the final stretch.

As a side note that I just have to mention. yesterday I was given two hives. one is a deep with a medium on top 8 frame set up that is struggling with a tiny cluster of bees. The other was 10 frame and 5 boxes tall. I had to get it reduced in size to move it but found that there are bees in 3 of the 5 boxes and a full box of honey. the last box at the very bottom was completely empty but has drawn comb. They are basically rescues for someone that had to move to Oregon. Now I will have to get a few more 8 fame boxes. I done did it and made the combination of boxes own fully confusing. Deeps and mediums in both 10 and 8 frame now.

The owner also has 100 lbs of honey inside the house that we cannot get access to. Very frustrating as I was going to sell that honey to keep my customers supplied and send him the money. It would come in handy to help him get up and running again at his new place.

Anyway I am way OT but just excited about getting these two hives.
 
#47 ·
Bernard, Thank you for that last post. I found a few nuggets i had not heard before. Most interesting is that chilling will halt advancement to empty space. Cold is always a concern here even in mid summer. our nights will get down to the 40's or 50's even in July and August. chilling is always a concern. I am now wondering if by moving up frames of honey I was also unknowingly adding some thermal mass to that area as well.

I have not heard that a frame of brood equals three frames of bees either although have often thought about it. I have always just allowed for it to be one to one even though that did not sound likely to me. 3 to one is much higher than I would have dared guess.

As for the compacting of the brood nest. i don't tend to do much with the brood nest during build up. My rule of thumb is to stay away from it other than when getting a 5 frame nuc to expand and fill there first ten frame box. This winter I have been seeing several bits of information that cause me to reconsider that though. I will have to think on your description for a while to make sure I see the whole picture.

I do not tend to see the drone brood others mention but then i also use foundation a lot. I have only once seen my bees draw a frame with all large cells. Since then they will make a normal amount of drone comb and not enough to concern me. Drone brood is another thing I consider best left up to the bees. I do not think I have to manipulate everything they do to make another ounce of honey. If what I need is more honey I think it is best to let the bees be bees, produce what they will produce and just get another hive for anything more I need.

I am still very interested in everything I can do to help my bees thrive. I realize many if not most find all these fine details boring or unnecessary. But I don't, I find it is in such details great advancements in husbandry can be found. they are what make the difference in a good beekeeper and a great beekeeper.

Just from your post above. the addition of just one frame of brood increases the population of a hive by three frames of bees. That is not exactly a little difference. But you cannot think that you can make them fill every frame of a hive either. the issue is more like. how do you get a hive that already has a huge brood nest. to make one more or even two more frames of brood. if you can get two yo just got one more box of bees. It is very difficult to improve on good. But it can always be done.
 
#53 ·
Depending on the weather pattern in any particular year
That is an important point. Weather and the bees don't use the calendar. Last year we had a long winter and delayed spring blooms. The entire spring cycle was delayed about 3 weeks later than average. The year before, we had a mild winter and early spring, and the pattern was 3 weeks earlier then usual. Recovering from shoulder surgery it took me by surprise that spring, and almost all of my colonies went into swarm prep 3 weeks early. Lots of swarms and splits that spring.

Ace is correct, the cycles revolve around temperature and bloom patterns.
 
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