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Thread: New hand holds!

  1. #21
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    Default Re: New hand holds!

    jmgi.. I agree totally, and I don't understand it either. Just know it happens.

    It is what is in the box that counts, but, the box does count too. If you are selling a product that looks non standard, then they wonder if what is inside is also non standard. Just me, but, I would not underestimate the value of how something looks, especially until you establish a reputation.

    People are less likely to want commercially looking equipment for nuc, than for full size hives, ( 8 or 10 framers). Lots of people spend as much time making their apiary look good, as to make honey. Commercial bee keepers, for the most part,, don't really care what the box looks like as long as it performs, but, it is a different ball game with hobbiest and backyard beekeeper.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: New hand holds!

    Quote Originally Posted by jmgi View Post
    I don't understand why anyone would not want to buy nuc's from someone just because they make their own nuc boxes with different handholds and corner joints than what the bee supply companies sell. If you do quality work building equipment, people will recognize it for the most part. Yes, there will always be a few picky beginners who will think everything has to look like it does in the catalog or its not built right, so what. With the demand for bees what it is today, I would not worry about the shape of the handholds or rabbet vs. box joints when making equipment to sell, but that's just me. To quote Mike Palmer, "it's what is in the box that counts".
    jmgi,
    I agree with your premise for the most part. I use all mediums and build my own boxes...I use rabbet joints because they are a heck of a lot easier to make and I'm convinced that they are plenty strong enough when glued and stapled properly, as well as possibly having an advantage over box joints because you only leave half the amount of end grain exposed to the elements. (But that's a whole different discussion)

    However, the other point that was being made is correct...Understand that since I use Rabbet joints, while the inside dimensions of my box is the same as the commercial boxes, the outside dimensions are different. Therefore, that would cause issues that I think a lot of folks would not like if they started stacking my style boxes among commercial boxes. I guess whether those issues are purely aesthetic or "actual issues" is another debate....but I don't think most would want to do it regardless. I know I wouldn't!

  3. #23
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    Default Re: New hand holds!

    Cleo: All good points and I pretty much agree with everything except, long term (say 20+ years) a finger joint far outperforms any rabbet joint I have ever seen. There is a reason all major bee equipment manufacturers use exclusively finger joints.
    Yes, in reselling there is a hurdle to overcome if things don't pass the first visual test of uniformity. My father spent years growing our business by buying out smaller operations. I have dealt with the gamut of homemade equipment but my reaction was always the same the first time I would see the latest stuff he purchased....."oh no! What this time?"
    If you have designs on growing your operation considerably, or even if you don't and you think you might want to sell some day. I recommend that do it yourselfers mimic commercial appearance and particularly dimensions as closely as possible. It's not an indictment on anyone's woodworking skills just a statement of reality.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  4. #24
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: New hand holds!

    Hmmm, I make my hive bodies with rabbet joints as well, but the finished box dimensions - inside and outside - match the dimensions of the Beesource Build it Yourself plans, which show box joints.

    As far as the perception of different handholds giving potential purchasers concern that the boxes are "homemade" and somehow inferior to other boxes, the solution is to promote that as a feature!

    Include a photo of the handhold cross section, and talk about how your design is an improvement on the ordinary handhold available elsewhere. Product differentiation is the key to separating your product from the pack and possibly getting a higher price.

    The same principle is at work in marketing local honey, Ford vs Chevy, Roundup vs glyphosate, and Shell gasoline vs "ordinary" gasoline.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  5. #25
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    Default Re: New hand holds!

    Jim lyon...Well stated, good advise for those considering building their own equipment, and possibly selling bees and equipment someday.

    I suspect someone will jump on the finger joint, box joint statement. But, i agree with you.

    cchoganjr

  6. #26
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    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: New hand holds!

    If I was building and selling boxes, I would consider acquiring a wax dipping tank and selling dipped hive components. As far as I am aware, Country Rubes is one of the few vendors offering dipped hive components in "retail" quantities.

    Use the dipping tank for your own boxes, and sell dipped boxes to separate yourself from competitors. Obviously, the boxes must be sold assembled, but from a practical point of view a small hive body producer will not have an easy time competing with outfits like Western Bee for unassembled boxes anyway.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  7. #27
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    Default Re: New hand holds!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    If I was building and selling boxes, I would consider acquiring a wax dipping tank and selling dipped hive components.
    Use the dipping tank for your own boxes, and sell dipped boxes to separate yourself from competitors.
    Totally agree. Would certainly buy assembled, dipped boxes ........... no paint...........ever! A BIG selling point......
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for the Varrox Vaporizer, "One of the highest ranked" by R. Oliver

  8. #28
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    Default Re: New hand holds!

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    Hmmm, I make my hive bodies with rabbet joints as well, but the finished box dimensions - inside and outside - match the dimensions of the Beesource Build it Yourself plans, which show box joints.
    Rader,
    WOW! You're correct! Not sure what I was thinking there, other than the cut on the long side boards have to be different between the two styles of joints...But the finished product does have the same dimensions! Again, not sure what I was thinking...I'll attribute to the fact that I hadn't had my morning coffee yet. LOL! Apologies...

    Regardless, I'm still a fan of rabbet joints, and know many that would agree, as well as many that would disagree.

  9. #29
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    Grosse Ile, Michigan, USA
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    Default Re: New hand holds!

    Quote Originally Posted by Moots View Post
    However, the other point that was being made is correct...Understand that since I use Rabbet joints, while the inside dimensions of my box is the same as the commercial boxes, the outside dimensions are different. Therefore, that would cause issues that I think a lot of folks would not like if they started stacking my style boxes among commercial boxes. I guess whether those issues are purely aesthetic or "actual issues" is another debate....but I don't think most would want to do it regardless. I know I wouldn't!
    I don't know why your outside box dimensions would be any different than store bought when using rabbet joints, I use rabbets and my inside and outside dimensions are exactly the same as any you buy.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: New hand holds!

    Quote Originally Posted by jmgi View Post
    I don't know why your outside box dimensions would be any different than store bought when using rabbet joints, I use rabbets and my inside and outside dimensions are exactly the same as any you buy.
    jmgi,
    They're NOT! See my post above...I have no plausible, reasonable, or logical explanation as to what I was thinking...

  11. #31
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    Default Re: New hand holds!

    Here is a link to my handle:
    https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-R...8+09.42.50.jpg

    Peter

  12. #32
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    Default Re: New hand holds!

    Quote Originally Posted by pihlpet View Post
    Peter,
    Nice!

    Has that wood been treated? If so, with what?

  13. #33
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    Raplamaa, Estonia, Europe
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    Default Re: New hand holds!

    Quote Originally Posted by Moots View Post
    Peter,
    Nice!

    Has that wood been treated? If so, with what?
    Thanks! Yes, the wood is treated. It is treated with only heat - thermotreatment (no chemicals are used).
    My hives are like that all-year-round, without any paint etc.
    https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-c...o/CAM00050.jpg

    Peter

  14. #34
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    Default Re: New hand holds!

    Quote Originally Posted by pihlpet View Post
    Thanks! Yes, the wood is treated. It is treated with only heat - thermotreatment (no chemicals are used).
    My hives are like that all-year-round, without any paint etc.
    https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-c...o/CAM00050.jpg

    Peter
    Very interesting...From the look of it, I thought maybe you had used ECO International. I was going to pick your brain for an opinion if so...I've purchased some, but haven't tried it yet. Up until now I'd been painting my boxes.

    Thanks,
    Jeff

  15. #35
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    Default Re: New hand holds!

    Quote Originally Posted by Moots View Post
    Very interesting...From the look of it, I thought maybe you had used ECO International. I was going to pick your brain for an opinion if so...I've purchased some, but haven't tried it yet. Up until now I'd been painting my boxes.

    Thanks,
    Jeff
    Sorry, can't help with opinion on personal practice.
    And I just noticed, that there are many different handles on my last picture

    Peter

  16. #36
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    Oct 2013
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    Birmingham, AL. USA
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    Default Re: New hand holds!

    Nice work!
    Latitude 33.401557
    Longitude -86.830949

  17. #37
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    Default Re: New hand holds!

    Quote Originally Posted by pihlpet View Post
    Very nice! Can you explain how you did that?

    My video was posted earlier in this thread that shows how I cut mine. My handles are similar to yours but I don't have that bottom chamfer. I only cut them this way out of laziness and convenience. If I could add a slope or chamfer to allow water to run off then I'd be a little happier with them.
    ~ Bill Catherall
    Youtube.com/TheBeeVlog - or Blog

  18. #38
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    Default Re: New hand holds!

    Actually im using a different machine - spindle moulder.
    Principal is the same as in the video you posted but the operation is done vertically not horisontally.
    And im using two stop-blocks, one in the beginning and one in the end. Allows making looong handholds

    I can try, maybe I can do a video about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheBeeVlog View Post
    Very nice! Can you explain how you did that?

    My video was posted earlier in this thread that shows how I cut mine. My handles are similar to yours but I don't have that bottom chamfer. I only cut them this way out of laziness and convenience. If I could add a slope or chamfer to allow water to run off then I'd be a little happier with them.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: New hand holds!

    Last edited by pihlpet; 01-27-2014 at 01:00 AM. Reason: triple-posting

  20. #40
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    Default Re: New hand holds!

    Quote Originally Posted by pihlpet View Post
    Ah ha. Very nice. Makes sense now. Thanks!
    ~ Bill Catherall
    Youtube.com/TheBeeVlog - or Blog

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