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  1. #41
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    Default Re: NEONICATOIDS ..........And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you

    From http://www.beyondpesticides.org/dailynewsblog/?p=10858


    Dr. Goulson’s study provides the public with its first look at Bayer’s own data on the persistence of neonicotinoids in soil. Shockingly, this information shows that the soil half-life of the most commonly used seed treatments can range from 200- 1000 days. In the case of clothianidin, a chemical that Beyond Pesticides and other organizations are suing the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) to suspend, it is revealed that the chemical has the potential to remain in soil for 6,931 days (nearly 19 years!) before degrading. One study referenced by Dr. Goulson shows that thiamethoxam can persist for nearly 3,000 days. A breakdown product of thiamethoxam is clothianidin; thus, even when these chemicals do begin to degrade, their breakdown products have the potential to be just as toxic as the parent chemical.


    I'm thinking,wondering about of the build up after years of use

  2. #42
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    May 2013
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    Chardon, Ohio
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    Default Re: NEONICATOIDS ..........And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I've thought about the 'going public' issue.

    There's a chain of command in academia which includes the institution and the source of the grant.

    If I were in that position, I would have started with my department chairman, and then further up in the institution.

    The right government agency to contact would be the WSA.

    However, I don't know why she went public, or if she has institutional support for doing so.
    WLC claims degrees "to numerous to list" yet clearly shows he has no comprehension of how academic research works.
    Last edited by Barry; 01-13-2014 at 03:36 PM.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: NEONICATOIDS ..........And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you

    Irwin:

    I've pointed out that there's another DT50 number from Table 1 in Goulson (2013) that's even worse than the 19 year number (a lab sample).

    It was a field sample of silty clay loam from Saskatchewan that showed negligible dissipation in 25 months, and therefore didn't have a reported half life because the clothiadinin wasn't breaking down.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: NEONICATOIDS ..........And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you

    Richard, Morrissey may be working under a Canadian federal grant which has its own rules of conduct that differ from our own.

    She is NOT a full professor. She's not even an associate professor. She is just an assistant professor without tenure (on probation) who can be terminated without cause. If she's wrong, the institution may be liable.

    It's WLC at all times on the forum.
    Last edited by WLC; 01-13-2014 at 03:11 PM.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: NEONICATOIDS ..........And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you

    >>I'm thinking,wondering about of the build up after years of use<<

    and after years of continual use of neonic, those background residual levels should be building in our soils and waters.

    sounds like a very easy study to perform, select random fields across the country and test for the residual neonic levels.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  6. #46
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    Default Re: NEONICATOIDS ..........And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you

    "I don't know why she went public, or if she has institutional support for doing so."

    She may not care about the consequences, she may only care about getting the info, truth out.
    She has decided what's important here

  7. #47
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    Default Re: NEONICATOIDS ..........And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you

    Irwin:

    That's true, she may be an idealist.

    However, I wouldn't count on the Saskatchewan WSA corroborating here findings.

    I don't have the 'Playbill' for the actors involved in the drama that's playing out in Saskatchewan, let alone Canada.

    But, I do know that an academic institution will gladly throw an untenured faculty member 'under the bus' if they can gain from it.

    Morrissey may have made it too easy for them to do. Sorry, but that's my opinion of what's likely to happen at this point.

  8. #48

    Default Re: NEONICATOIDS ..........And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you

    In the Netherlands Dr. Tennekes has done just that and he also found widespread contamination of ground water and surface water with neonics. Sometimes with very high residues. He also showed the decline of insect eating birds.

    So basicly she found what he found on the other side of the big pond.

    Doesn't surprise me anyway, since neonics are water soluble. And are long lasting in the soil. If it is used year after year, the soil is saturated and cannot take anymore, so it washes off.

    Some of the results Tennekes found are described in his book: A disaster in the making.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: NEONICATOIDS ..........And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you

    One of my friends has a former classmate that is a corn breeder with syngenta, so my friend told him about how it has been tougher to keep his bees alive. So he said that there is enough pesticide on one kernel of corn to kill around 1000 bees.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: NEONICATOIDS ..........And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you

    from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonicotinoid, I see the total value of sale of neo nic's was $2632 million in 2009, probably up a little since then, eh , lol. No IPM required,easier and better than using spray's, lasts for years , better for the farmer not me . I know one farmer who had problems with treated canola seed not working this spring,flea beetles were devouring his crop and he had to spray and I had to move bees.
    WLC, who who are you?, no need to hide....don't be shy, pm me
    Last edited by irwin harlton; 01-13-2014 at 05:42 PM.

  11. #51
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    Default Re: NEONICATOIDS ..........And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you

    Irwin, it's WLC on the forum at all times.

    I'm sorry to hear you had to move your bees.

  12. #52
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    Default Re: NEONICATOIDS ..........And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you

    >>know one farmer who had problems with treated canola seed not working this spring,flea beetles were devouring his crop and he had to spray and I had to move bees.<<

    Tell that farmer he had the stripped flea beetle move in, Helix controls the crusifer. We got caught by the same infestation and had to broadcast many of our acres as well. There is another seed treatment available to control both, guess what it is...

    We have actually considered dropping the seed treatment to broadcast but we are very hesitant as we shutter about the days of blanket spraying. Like I had mentioned, it's a shift. Which way do you want it? It's one way or the other, can't be neither...

  13. #53
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    Default Re: NEONICATOIDS ..........And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you

    WLC ,

    my farm is involved with a small dam nutrient water loading study done by a couple graduates from the UofS. They know Christy and I will not relay the conversation with one of them, they did provide a link to preliminary results from her group.
    http://www.abcbirds.org/abcprograms/...onic_FINAL.pdf
    This is preliminary and is what she probably used to go public. They had to dig this up though, as the media provided zero references to this story
    here is one small quote from the email,

    "these are some very good researchers working on the topic…. so I have trust in their science. "

    so ya, I also believe these are good researchers, but how can anyone stand behind their science before the science goes through it course? Are we talking blind trust here?

    Irwin, I totally understand the situation, as I am also a beekeeper. What is going to happen when everyone is broadcasting? How many hiding spots can we find out there. Better get our hands on them now, record canola acres going in this year and the next after that. Take that seed treatment away and look out... that beetle is going to die one way or another

    Im not trying to criticize your stand on the issue, next time you see me at a meeting dont throw your chair at me... just which bad is worst for us?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  14. #54
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    Default Re: NEONICATOIDS ..........And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you

    In plain English can someone summarize what WLC is saying? Thanks
    Last edited by Barry; 01-13-2014 at 05:49 PM.

  15. #55
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    Default Re: NEONICATOIDS ..........And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you

    What he is saying, I think, is these studies are supposed to be finalized and peer reviewed before they go public,... or is that just in picky gov't circles...
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  16. #56
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    Default Re: NEONICATOIDS ..........And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you

    Ian, I take no offence, no harm done....farmers must protect their crop in the best way possible.
    The farmer at least told me he was going to spray, some don't,

    As for moving that yard, I think they benefitted from the change in scenery and when moved back got right to work

  17. #57
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    Jul 2013
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    Mirabel, Québec, Canada
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    Default Re: NEONICATOIDS ..........And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you

    So what if she didn't finish her trials? Her findings are interesting as-is. The fact that she plans to collect more data does not make it any less serious that in this season, so many samples turned out positive for high amounts of neonics.

    Quote Originally Posted by grozzie2 View Post
    This is the problem with most 'activist' causes. They make lots of noise regarding 'we want change', or 'this must stop', but bring no viable alternatives forward. It's all based on the squeaky wheel principle, the wheel that squeaks loudest (in the press) will get the political attention, and politicians are a completely reactive breed, reacting only the the stimulus that comes from headlines and/or ballot boxes.

    The real sad part of some of this, a 'celebrity endorsement' will go MUCH MUCH farther in affecting opinion, than any amount of scientific study on the subject. This is another detail that has not been lost on many activist groups.
    A good start would be only using it when needed. Trials showed that in most cases, the use of neonic treatment on seeds provided no yield gains.

    Quote Originally Posted by AstroBee View Post
    Sure seems implasuable. I seem to recall that neonics have a pretty short half-life (like 30 days) in water, which would seem to suggest that accumulation wouldn't be much of an issue. Where would it be coming from prior to planting season? I sure hope that we can get some real definitive answers.
    When exposed to sunlight, they are said to have an extremely short half-life (I heard 1 day). Out of the sun's reach, however, is a completely different story.

  18. #58
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    Default Re: NEONICATOIDS ..........And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you

    Ian:

    Morrisey (2010) was reporting a maximum value for clothiadinin of 2.3 ug/L. It's close to background.

    But acute toxicity for Daphnia (a common test species for pesticides) is 109,523 ug/L.

    It's just a detection, nothing more.

    We still don't know what new values she is reporting though.

    Try to remember until her data is published in a peer reviewed journal, it isn't officially part of the scientific 'record'.

    Don't panic just yet. Let the WSA do their job first.

  19. #59
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    Mar 2012
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    groveton tx
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    Default Re: NEONICATOIDS ..........And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you

    Have any of the farmers on here ever hear of Dr William Albrecht? My brother is interested in soil fertility and has told me lots about him. I wonder if many of the pest problems are related to poor soil fertility or out of balance soil nutrition.

  20. #60
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    Bedford, Indiana
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    Default Re: NEONICATOIDS ..........And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you

    Yes the soil is out of balance. Thats what happens when you don't rotate your crops and give it a rest. Thats why it takes anhydrous ammonia to get anything to grow.

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