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  1. #121
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Jonathan:

    I don't think that De Jong is using Discoidal shift and Cubital index in the PCA. They seem to be using just 8 points for the GWV data.

    I also wouldn't say that molecular data is that much 'reliable' when it comes to population studies.

    I'm not relying on tea leaves. I'm citing peer reviewed studies.

  2. #122
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Are my queens mating with both domestic and feral/AHB stock?
    How consistent are your readings from these two populations respectively?

    What I'm trying to establish is, how well do you know that what you are seeing is significant, based on real world information? And what grounds can you supply for that evaluation?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Do queens mated earlier in the season show different hybridization patterns than later mated queens?

    Do I have more than one laying queen in my colony?
    Good questions, but can you properly justify the claim that you are able to answer them well?

    Mike (UK)
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  3. #123
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I'm not relying on tea leaves. I'm citing peer reviewed studies.
    WLC,

    I've offered what I think is a half decent criticism of one of your studies (that it makes a key statement that is inconsistent with the others, and with a reasoned position based on biological fundamentals)

    From my point of view, you ought to address that criticism if you expect me to accept your references.

    A good question to ask of that (suspect) paper: who were the (peer) reviewers? More software designers?

    I've been reviewing these issue in my copy of Ruttners book, and he is explicit: 40 different morphometric features are available for the two populations that interest him, and he wants a good number to be used in any interrogation of type. This criticism, against the usefulness of wing measurements alone, even for just two populations, needs answering with more than just one reference written by software designers, that is countered pretty much exhaustively by the more relevant fields.

    Mike (UK)
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  4. #124
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Jonathan:

    I don't think that De Jong is using Discoidal shift and Cubital index in the PCA. They seem to be using just 8 points for the GWV data.
    It takes 8 points to get the data for Discoidal shift and Cubital index.

  5. #125
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    But can't u just ACD me ASAP w/ a DVR STP?
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  6. #126
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    It takes 8 points to get the data for Discoidal shift and Cubital index.
    Before we talk about the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin, can we establish the existence of angels in the first place?

    Mike (UK)
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  7. #127
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Before we talk about the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin, can we establish the existence of angels in the first place?

    Mike (UK)
    I don't think looking at wing venation is of any use at all in looking for treatment free bees. I am just providing background information as I do not think there are too many posting on the thread who have any practical experience of taking samples and using the software.
    It can separate pure race subspecies - but as oldtimer said in a previous post, you can often do that on abdomen colour alone.
    I get the odd colony which looks like pure race A.m.m., but when you check a wing sample there are clear signs of hybridisation. In that sense it is useful to avoid rearing queens from the colony if you want to keep pure race stock.

    Much more useful for treatment free beekeeping would be the collating of accurate mite count data based on sugar shake or alcohol wash of a fixed number of bees.
    The pitfall of many would bee treatment free beekeepers is just throwing bees into a box, not treating, then watching and waiting for a miracle.

  8. #128
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Yet another thread becomes WayLaid Completely.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  9. #129
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    From Fusionpower:

    "The major item I see missing in your plan is management of drones and management of a mating area so the number of mite tolerant colonies can be dramatically increased in 2 or 3 years. Also, in my experience, finding a mite tolerant colony usually involves a lot of unwanted genetics that take years to reduce to a tolerable level. I found a queen whose colony was mite tolerant in 2004/2005. The unwanted genetics turned out to be a very high level of hive defensiveness. They could not be worked without a suit. And no, they were not Africanized, they were just typical AMM stock for the area. It took 7 years to get them toned down enough to work in short sleeves. "

    I think that geometric wing venation has an application to Fusionpower's experience and charting progress towards a TF apiary.

    I might be in a similar situation with BeeWeavers.

    Having used molecular methods in identifying species and hybrids, I would much prefer to use a simpler, faster, and cheaper approaches like De Jong's method.

    Most of us have scanners, but most of us don't have a molecular biology lab or accounts with biotech companies established (although I do).

  10. #130
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Most of us have scanners, but most of us don't have a molecular biology lab or accounts with biotech companies established (although I do).
    Have you got any good photographs of inside your lab, sounds like an interesting place.

  11. #131
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Here's a paper that illustrates how Francoy and De Jong were able to follow hybridization between Africanized and Italian Honeybees:

    "Rapid morphological changes in populations of hybrids between Africanized and European honey bees."

    http://www.funpecrp.com.br/gmr/year2...df/gmr2371.pdf

    It look likes they were using MorphoJ software to do the statistical analysis.

    Here's a peak at some analytical methods used in a different paper (Geometric morphometrics reveals morphological differentiation within four African stingless bee species)...

    "Statistical Analyses
    The Cartesian coordinates of the landmarks were Procrustes aligned to evaluate existing shape variations among the different populations using MorphoJ software version 1.03 (45). Within MorphoJ software, further statistical
    computations including principal component analyses (PCA), canonical variate analyses (CVA), discriminant
    function analyses (DFA), Procrustes ANOVA and Regression analyses were conducted to discriminate populations
    within each species against the different ecological zones. In addition, relative warp analyses was conducted to
    summarize the variation among the specimens (with respect to their partial warp scores) using the tpsRelw software version 1.49 (46). The Mahalanobis square distances between the centroids of CVA were then used to construct a
    neighbor joining dendogram with MEGA5 software version 5.05 (47)."

    So, yes, you can examine hybridization with a different application in the same software package (MorphoJ).

  12. #132
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    I get the odd colony which looks like pure race A.m.m., but when you check a wing sample there are clear signs of hybridisation. In that sense it is useful to avoid rearing queens from the colony if you want to keep pure race stock.
    Actually that's a good point Jonathan, maybe I should even have a look at this myself.

    We used to have a large AMM population here, and while no recognisable AMM bees are left their genetics live on in our Italian population, which pretty much all are hybridised even if only to a small extent. Despite my best efforts I will occasionally get a nice yellow looking bee, but they are nasty aggressive little sods. I always wonder if this is from a bit of AMM in them, wing morphology might be a way I could check this. First, I'll see if my scanner is up to scanning a bees wing, if it can, I'll post up here and ask to be pointed in the right direction to get the info to analyse.
    To my knowledge wing morphology has never been used in my country for breeder selection so that would remove the element of it having been selected for as a trait.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  13. #133
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    pass
    Julysun elevation 23 feet. 4 Hives, 2 years.

  14. #134
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    How consistent are your readings from these two populations respectively?
    What I'm trying to establish is, how well do you know that what you are seeing is significant, based on real world information? And what grounds can you supply for that evaluation? Good questions, but can you properly justify the claim that you are able to answer them well? Mike (UK)
    I bought 2 open mated queens from Texas. The first came with the package in April. The second was a replacement queen in June. I could ask the multiple queen question because I see different morphologies in the workers.

    My point being, you should have questions that you could reasonably expect that wing morphometrics can help you to answer.

    For example, in the paper, "Rapid morphological changes in populations of hybrids between Africanized and European honey bees", They make claims of seeing evidence of dominance and epistatic influences.

  15. #135
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    I don't think looking at wing venation is of any use at all in looking for treatment free bees.
    Jonathan,

    I'm interested to hear WLCs side of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    I get the odd colony which looks like pure race A.m.m., but when you check a wing sample there are clear signs of hybridisation. In that sense it is useful to avoid rearing queens from the colony if you want to keep pure race stock.
    So you also have colonies that check out as pure Amm using a series of morphometric tests?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    Much more useful for treatment free beekeeping would be the collating of accurate mite count data based on sugar shake or alcohol wash of a fixed number of bees.
    I would have thought that - if you go along with that - it would apply just as much to your pure race/near pure race bees? Morphometrics doesn't help in any way with resistance traits does it? (Although I assume you will be working with the assumption that if you can get a pure race stable it will be easier to fix traits - including resistance behaviours - than in a mongrel population...)

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    The pitfall of many would bee treatment free beekeepers is just throwing bees into a box, not treating, then watching and waiting for a miracle.
    I agree - though we have different recipies for fixing the problem

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 01-25-2014 at 04:40 AM.
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  16. #136
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Here's a paper that illustrates how Francoy and De Jong were able to follow hybridization between Africanized and Italian Honeybees:

    "Rapid morphological changes in populations of hybrids between Africanized and European honey bees."
    WLC,

    Follow changes yes. Undo them (put humpty dumpty back together) no.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    ... further statistical computations .... were conducted to discriminate populations within each species against the different ecological zones.
    Established ecotypes, yes. These may be 'hybrids', yes. But 'established' hybrids. This means you can find features that are common to all individuals. The absence of that feature then signals otherness - further hybridisation.

    You have a base to measure against, just as you do with pure species.

    None of this is available in the case of mongrels or higher levels of recent, unstable hybridisation between pure races or ecotypes.

    I would imagine that deep - forest/wilderness 'survivor' bees might show a good level of stability - and the ability to track that might be a vary useful thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    So, yes, you can examine hybridization with a different application in the same software package (MorphoJ).
    I think you need to refine your terminology for statements like this. There is 'hybridization' and then there is 'hybridization'. A stable local ecotype may emerge from a hybrid population, and be amenable to morphological analysis.

    A deeply and recently hybridised ('mongrel') population won't be amenable - it'll be all over the place. But it may have a shared set of feature that are gold dust - the mite tolerance behaviours. And it may well be capable (if left alone) of becoming a thriving, stable local ecotype of the first sort.

    Does all that fit with your understanding?

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 01-25-2014 at 04:56 AM.
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  17. #137
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I bought 2 open mated queens from Texas. The first came with the package in April. The second was a replacement queen in June. I could ask the multiple queen question because I see different morphologies in the workers.
    Surely the queen could supply positve and negative results - on the assumption that she carries a gene set for the geometry you're looking for and another that doesn't code for that geometry. Second, it could be the sperm she carries that is giving the wrong results for you.

    If you knew the queen was pure race (and thus both her gene sets would supply the right shapes) you could then blame the matings.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    My point being, you should have questions that you could reasonably expect that wing morphometrics can help you to answer.
    I'm not yet convinced that you are getting the answers you think you are. You're going to have to step me through the rationale at a basic level.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 01-25-2014 at 04:56 AM.
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  18. #138
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Mike:

    While I think that breeders conserving 'pure' stocks of Honeybees is important, I believe that the vast majority of TF bees are hybrids of one kind or another. We already know that queens that are well mated with a diversity of drone stock can produce healthier colonies.

    Since my TF bees are store bought (open mated in Texas), and many TF beekeepers use ferals, I think that GWV morphometrics provides important information with regards to the stock.

    For example, I would want to know if loss of hybridization leads to a loss of resistance in my own bees. I can't open mate with the hybrid swarm here in NYC.

    I don't have to wait for a miracle with BeeWeavers. I'm trusting Daniel Weaver's skill as a TF queen breeder/producer.

    There's one key issue here in the U.S. that you don't have in the UK. We have to have a way to guard against AHB.

    While we do use morphometrics to test for AHB, since the Darger Thesis, it looks like we're using a method that gives false positives, and we need to use GWV instead.

    With regards to ferals in Florida which are being misidentified as AHB, it becomes a Honeybee conservation issue.

    They may be destroying a valuable, resistant stock.

  19. #139
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Mike:

    While I think that breeders conserving 'pure' stocks of Honeybees is important, I believe that the vast majority of TF bees are hybrids of one kind or another.
    WLC,

    Could you tell me whether you agree my distinction between stable local ecotypes that are 'hybrids', and 'mongrels'? If so, how would you place the dividing line between the two?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    We already know that queens that are well mated with a diversity of drone stock can produce healthier colonies.
    Yes, although I'm not sure that entails hybridisation - well mated within subspecies works just as well as far as I know.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Since my TF bees are store bought (open mated in Texas), and many TF beekeepers use ferals, I think that GWV morphometrics provides important information with regards to the stock.
    I think it can only tell that there may be a fraction of the thing you fear - AHB genetics - that part responsible for WV pattern. I think you'd expect a lot of that in open mated queens from within the Texas hybrid 'survivor population', and there is no rationale for supposing that aggressiveness might accompany it.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    For example, I would want to know if loss of hybridization leads to a loss of resistance in my own bees. I can't open mate with the hybrid swarm here in NYC.
    You would measure 'loss of hybridisation' by rising uniformity among workers? That may due to lower mating rates, or the presence of a stable survivor hybrid ecotype in NYC.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I don't have to wait for a miracle with BeeWeavers.
    What would qualify as a miracle?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    There's one key issue here in the U.S. that you don't have in the UK. We have to have a way to guard against AHB.
    You have to guard against undue aggressivness. So breed away when you see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    While we do use morphometrics to test for AHB, since the Darger Thesis, it looks like we're using a method that gives false positives, and we need to use GWV instead.
    Eh? Geometric Wing Veination is a morphometric. ...?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    With regards to ferals in Florida which are being misidentified as AHB, it becomes a Honeybee conservation issue.
    The problem here is that 'Africanised' is mumbo-jumbo. A scare-term. There's no such thing as an 'AHB.' There are hybrids with more or less African genetics, and that seems to roughly corrolate with aggressive behaviours. Fair do's. But finding a bit of African influence in a wing isn't a good reason to terminate the line.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    They may be destroying a valuable, resistant stock.
    Quite. So might you.

    Mike (UK)
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  20. #140
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    To my knowledge wing morphology has never been used in my country for breeder selection so that would remove the element of it having been selected for as a trait.
    You've played in the slips haven't you.

    Mike (UK)
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