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  1. #101
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Jonathan,
    Thanks for your real-world caveats and contributions. Yup, we've "bird-walked" way off-topic (I was trying to understand what point WLC was trying to make by deconstructing his gnostic comments). Good luck with the Amm breeding project.

  2. #102
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    GWV is a useful tool in developing TF bees.

    Dr. De Jong, in Brazil, is the worldwide expert in its application.

    Finally, the rest of us are waiting for a GWV app. for Honeybees to come out of Brazil.

    I'm a pragmatist.

  3. #103
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    Mike.
    Post 95 makes no sense from start to finish!
    Jonathan,

    I think it does. It would be useful if you could tell me what doesn't make sense. Then we could do some learning.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    We are largely in agreement about the limitations of wing morphometry.

    This plot shows wing samples from one of my A.m.m. colonies compared with wings from a New Zealand carnica queen colony in Scotland which I scanned. The CI difference alone makes it very easy to separate the two.
    Like I said, I have data from about 100 colonies I have scanned and I am much less confident about the utility of this technique than I used to be - when you are dealing with hybrids.
    That seems to me to say: I spent a lot of time finding out something I could have found out by glancing sideways at the bees!

    I can see the utility when, like Ruttner, there are only two sub-species in play and you have the capacity to create and hold an island of foreign bees within the larger pond. (In his case he was attempting to wipe out the home bees using a massive scale centrally planned multi-beekeeper operation)

    Anyway, its been an interesting conversation and I've learned a lot - thanks.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
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  4. #104
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    I haven't gone back to look at the fundamental papers establishing the wing morphometric discipline. I played around with wing scans (and posted these to a previous thread). I see two big issues with its implementation.
    Angels on pinheads...?

    Mike?
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
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  5. #105
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    GWV is a useful tool in developing TF bees.

    Dr. De Jong, in Brazil, is the worldwide expert in its application.
    This would tie us back to the topic ... can you direct us to relevant papers or reports WLC?

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
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  6. #106
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Most of the papers on the methodology have Francoy as the lead author.

  7. #107
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    In my opinion, the real value of using GWV in TF beekeeping is that it can give you information with regards to the degree of hybridization of your resistant stock.

    You can also start to answer questions relevant to queen mating.

    For example...

    Are my queens mating with both domestic and feral/AHB stock?

    Do queens mated earlier in the season show different hybridization patterns than later mated queens?

    Do I have more than one laying queen in my colony?

    So, the GWV/PCA 'app' does have it's limits, but it does have a range of questions that it can do well in exploring.

  8. #108
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    In my opinion, the real value of using GWV in TF beekeeping is
    Oh yeah, right up there with Thelytoky!
    Regards, Barry

  9. #109
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Most of the papers on the methodology have Francoy as the lead author.
    I found this one, thanks.

    Variation morphogeometrics of Africanized honey bees (Apis mellifera) in Brazil
    Lorena A. NunesI; Edilson D. de AraújoII; Luis C. MarchiniI; Augusta C. de C. C. MoretiI
    (I imagine your author appears in the references)
    http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?scri...12012000300011

    Having only scanned it I have a better idea of what is possible. Its not simple though is it?

    I really can't yet see a use for tf beekeeping. Unless you believe a particular race is predisposed toward mite management (I don't think there are any grounds for such a belief) and on the basis that locally adapted bees are best, then you're going to be working with hybrids, and there's little point in trying to do anything else. Unless you live in an area where a native race remains. But then you're doing something else, not doing something that aids tf.

    With that said, WLC's reasons (#107) are interesting, and I'd like to hear more. Maybe we could make them the starting point of a new thread - morphometry in the service of tf selection goals or somesuch.

    I'd also like to hear what it is Jonathan finds objectionable in my housebrick analogy. I thought it worked rather well. We need to note that every brick is a certain shape/fits in a certain place to complete the picture.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
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  10. #110
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Barry:

    Don't underestimate the Lusby/thelytoky issue with regards to TF beekeeping.

    TF beekeepers do need some way to examine hybridization issues or at least know where their bees 'fit in' with regards to other stock.

  11. #111
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    We need to note that every brick is a certain shape/fits in a certain place to complete the picture.
    But the design of a brick is uniformity. Any brick can fit the same place.
    Regards, Barry

  12. #112
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Mike:

    They're using a different statistical methodology in generating PCA plots than jonathan is using.

    So, it's a different issue.

  13. #113
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    TF beekeepers do need some way to examine hybridization issues or at least know where their bees 'fit in' with regards to other stock.
    We do?

    Humor me. Do you get on Beesource and reply to posts right there in your classroom in front of students, or do you step out of the room to the teachers lounge to reply? Curious how this happens when you're a teacher around students all day. Is Beesource part of the curriculum?
    Regards, Barry

  14. #114
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    But the design of a brick is uniformity. Any brick can fit the same place.
    That's what I mean. We have to use the analogy maybe of a stone building, where each stone is different/and has a special position - a 3D jigsaw puzzle.

    For our three subspecies, each of tens of thousands of special stones comes in 3 colours. (We're still simplifying, but this'll do to get on with.)

    When we peek through our hole in the covers of our newly built houses, we're looking at the same shaped stone each time. It may be any of three different colours.

    The question is what can the knowledge thus gained tell us about the rest of the house/bee?

    Say its the right colour - blue. Does it tell us that the rest of the stones are blue? No.

    Does it tell us how many might be blue? No.

    Say its the wrong colour. Does it tell us how many of the other stones are the wrong colour? No.

    It does tell us that its not a 100% pure blue house (and, if say the stone is yellow, that its also not a 100% red house)

    It could be that all the other stones are the right colour, and its just that one that's wrong! (Very unlikely I know, but its still true.)

    It is very likely that all the other stones are evenly distributed (in our case) between the 3 colours. And in that case the one with a blue stone (that we can see) is no more representative of its class than the rest.

    Until you have an idea of the sorts of proportion of components held in any house, you can't evaluate significance of the presence of one particular stone. (We do have that knowledge here - they are evenly distributed from 3 sources)

    You can get a picture of the proportions by making lots of holes (always in identical places) and combining the data statistically. Then, and only then, can you begin to evaluate matters - and then and only then can you assign a (statistical) significance to one particular stone.

    So you have to do an extensive survey, then evaluate what any particular feature might signify, before you start attaching significances - in order to make choices.

    And you have to realise that as soon as you start making choices on the basis of a particular feature, you start undermining the significance you can attach to later instances of that feature (from your population).

    Its pretty tricky stuff. I'm guessing, but I don't suppose the salesmen tell you that while they're trying to earn a living.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 01-24-2014 at 07:54 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
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  15. #115
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Anyway I can ban myself from this thread.

    After some great earlier posts the last 2 pages have been a car crash

    Don

  16. #116
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Don, one option for "unsubscribe" from a thread is on your "Settings" page. Try clicking this link - it should take you to the correct spot:
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/usercp.php

    But, even car crashes can be an interesting study in physics - and personalities!



    -- Victor Hugo -- "Common sense is in spite of, not the result of, education.”

  17. #117
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Mike:

    They're using a different statistical methodology in generating PCA plots than jonathan is using.

    So, it's a different issue.
    Its a complex issue all round as far as I can see. Those who don't see that are almost certainly wasting their time and messing things up for those who do see it.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  18. #118
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by D Semple View Post
    Anyway I can ban myself from this thread.

    After some great earlier posts the last 2 pages have been a car crash

    Don
    Ban yourself from this thread you can. Rollercoasters most threads are.

    (UK) Mike : )
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
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  19. #119
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    In my opinion, the real value of using GWV in TF beekeeping is that it can give you information with regards to the degree of hybridization of your resistant stock.
    If you start with a pure race queen which has mated with drones from the same subspecies that is probably true. If you start with a hybrid queen which has mated with a selection of say 15 random drones how are you going to ascertain the genetics of each of her 15 virgin queen daughters which are half sisters then take into account the different drones and different numbers of drones each will mate with. Good luck with that one. Maybe with access to a lab and a budget of several thousand dollars per colony!
    The scattergram of the wing plots from a hybrid queen is likely to be all over the place rather than a nice tight cluster and then you are looking at virgin queen daughters from bees with these varied wing patterns which mate with a wide selection of random drones. You would have more accuracy reading tea leaves.

    The problem here is bee genetics. If a queen mated with a single drone, the wing patterns would be more straightforward to interpret but that's not the case.

    Take this example. Each dot represents a scan of a worker bee wing from a colony. Any of these could potentially have become a queen.
    col75.jpg

    You have wings which range from a Discoidal shift of -6 and a low cubital index of 1.5 to those which have a Discoidal shift of +1 and a Cubital index of well over 2.0. Which one of these could become a daughter queen?
    In terms of appearance, a colony like this can look very uniform, ie all dark with no yellow banding.
    That is not even an extreme example as I don't have that much hybridisation in my bees. I have seen scattergrams where the wing plots appear to be randomly distributed over the entire plot area. As I said, good luck with the tea leaves.

  20. #120

    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    As I said, good luck with the tea leaves.
    Well said, LOL.
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

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