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  1. #61
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    We don't know as yet how well it stands up when examining the Amm issue.
    I think Jonathan and JWC covered that.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #62
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Do you remember the old tale about 3 blind men feeling of an elephant and then describing it? One felt the trunk and said it was long and flexible like a snake. One felt of a leg and said it was tall and sturdy like a tree. Another felt the belly and said it was like a wall that moves.

    Wing venation by necessity cannot reflect more than a small percentage of the genome of a bee therefore will always fail because it reflects so little of the genome. This is why full genome dna analysis will displace all previous ID methods.
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  3. #63
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    Do you remember the old tale about 3 blind men feeling of an elephant and then describing it? One felt the trunk and said it was long and flexible like a snake. One felt of a leg and said it was tall and sturdy like a tree. Another felt the belly and said it was like a wall that moves.

    Wing venation by necessity cannot reflect more than a small percentage of the genome of a bee therefore will always fail because it reflects so little of the genome. This is why full genome dna analysis will displace all previous ID methods.
    What I don't understand is: why does anyone care?

    What matters to tf beekeepers is which bees do well, on their own regardless of ancestry.

    What matters is: are they amenable to tf regimes. That is dependent on the presence of genes (gene clusters) coding for effective mite management.

    Those genes can come from anywhere - any race, any local population. There is no 'Pure Amm, Russian, mongrels etc, are more resistant'; there's only 'these Amm, Russian, mongrels etc. are able to manage varroa.'

    The whole business is a fat red herring as far as tf is concerned. Encouraged, as far as I can see, by people who want to flog microscopes, AI equipment, courses on how to peer into microscopes.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  4. #64
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Why would someone who used the BeeWeaver option in obtaining TF stock want to resort to Geometric Wing Venation morphometrics?

    Or, Why would someone resorting to ferals, etc.,... ?

    Piece of mind.

    It's not a red herring.

    Nor does it require anything too fancy. It needs a computer with a good scanner/printer, and the right App's.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    But it's not accurate.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  6. #66
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    The morphometrics used by the ARS to determine AHB isn't accurate according to Darger. GWV didn't return a false positive in the study. Plus, the GWV results matched the microsatellite data rather well.

    Here in the U.S., ferals are commonly used for resistant/TF stock.

    So, I think that many U.S. beekeepers would agree, if all they need to do is use their scanner, and learn to work an App or two, it would make it not only accessible, but possibly very useful. Especially if a GWV library could be built.

    There's a lot of talent here on Beesource alone.

  7. #67
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Problem is, it is not reliable.

    To put it clearer, you do the work, and at the end of the day, do not know if you can believe your results.

    So, what's the point?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  8. #68
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    The fun is in the scanning and drawing and nice pictures of bee wings! We'll figure out a use for them another time!
    Regards, Barry

  9. #69
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    That probably sums it.

    With the large degree of hybridisation of multiple breeds you have in the US, that in itself would make id using wing pattern a virtual impossibility in itself, there will be so many different influences on the wing.

    Over here it's more simple. Effectively we have 2 breeds, Italian & carniolan, AMM pretty much extinct now.

    So no messing with looking at wing vein patterns. We look at the bee is it black, or yellow, and it's that simple LOL.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  10. #70
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Not really.

    "Morphometrically, the data shows that there is an American bee, an amalgam
    that is distinctive from the originating, European subspecies (Figure 2). The GWV
    morphometric study further distinguishes between Africanized bees from Arizona and
    those from Africa and Brazil. Interestingly, the samples from
    Florida/Alabama/Georgia which were originally diagnosed as Africanized by the
    USDA-ID technique were found to have European ancestry using mtDNA markers,
    European morphology based on GWV and grouped with managed and unmanaged
    honey bee colonies in a population structure analysis using microsatellite markers."

    Darger thinks otherwise.

    She's Delaney's grad student, and I'm not going to argue with Delaney on this one.

  11. #71
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Darger thinks otherwise.
    Unsurprising.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I'm not going to argue
    What have you done with WLC, and who are you?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  12. #72
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    REVIEW ARTICLE
    Standard methods for characterising subspecies and ecotypes of Apis mellifera
    Marina D Meixner1*, Maria Alice Pinto2, Maria Bouga3, Per Kryger4, Evgeniya Ivanova5 and Stefan Fuchs6

    https://bibliotecadigital.ipb.pt/bit..._etal_2013.pdf

    Yes, it can be challenging.

  13. #73
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Yep, as Oldtimer said, "Problem is, it is not reliable."

    He's a student of commonsense, and I'm not going to argue with commonsense on this one.
    Last edited by Barry; 01-22-2014 at 04:28 PM. Reason: forgot smilie
    Regards, Barry

  14. #74
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    I think it's better to use the phrase, "Current state of the Art."

    Here's an abstract from a paper in press that suggests that GWV can be both automated and done online:

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...74954113001222

    "Several studies have shown that features extracted from patterns of bee wings are good discriminatory elements to differentiate among species, and some have devoted efforts to automate this process. However, the automated identification of bee species is a particularly hard problem, because (i) individuals of a given species may vary hugely in morphology, and (ii) closely related species may be extremely similar to one another. This paper proposes a reference process for bee classification based on wing images to provide a complete understanding of the problem from the experts’ point of view, and a foundation to software systems development and integration using Internet services. "

    I can always fire up the thermal cycler, but I'd much rather just put a wing on a scanner, and get the 'ballpark' estimate.

    One is cheap and easy, the other is time consuming and pricey.

  15. #75
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    The fun is in the scanning and drawing and nice pictures of bee wings! We'll figure out a use for them another time!
    Yep. I have hundreds. If you ever need a scan of a bee wing, I'm the man.

  16. #76
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    REVIEW ARTICLE
    Standard methods for characterising subspecies and ecotypes of Apis mellifera
    Marina D Meixner1*, Maria Alice Pinto2, Maria Bouga3, Per Kryger4, Evgeniya Ivanova5 and Stefan Fuchs6

    https://bibliotecadigital.ipb.pt/bit..._etal_2013.pdf

    Yes, it can be challenging.
    That Meixner et al paper relegates wing morphometry to a mere footnote in comparison to DNA techniques.
    It is a nice overview though.

    It is worth pointing out that several morphometric variables used in conjunction provide a powerful diagnostic tool whereas wings on their own are unreliable.

    This paper by Strange et al covers it well.

    Most of these references including the Meixner et al are together on the Irish Native bee website for anyone interested in chasing them up.

  17. #77
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    "A high degree of consistency between wing morphometry and molecular information has been demonstrated by Miguel et al. (2010). Therefore, wing geometry is particularly suitable to track phylogenetic relationships between subspecies, where the full "classical" character set can be misleading."

    I wouldn't use the term 'footnote' to describe the treatment of morphometrics in that paper.

  18. #78
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    "A high degree of consistency between wing morphometry and molecular information has been demonstrated by Miguel et al.
    Which means it works, sometimes.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  19. #79
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Why would someone who used the BeeWeaver option in obtaining TF stock want to resort to Geometric Wing Venation morphometrics?

    Or, Why would someone resorting to ferals, etc.,... ?

    Piece of mind.
    I don't follow WLC. How, in what way, does this supply peace of mind?

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  20. #80
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    Default Re: An Option Towards Developing Treatment-Free Bees

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post

    "Morphometrically, the data shows ...."
    Don't the morphometrics involved in this case involve many more (20 odd?) features - not just wing patterns?

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

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