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  1. #21
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    May 2009
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    Default Re: Another Propane Fogger Oxalic Acid Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Gillmore View Post
    Fogging sure would be an easy delivery method. There still seems to be a lot of mystery behind how the OA actually effects the mites. It might be that the acid must be in a dry state, dehydrated, to work correctly. The oil might not allow the same type of action as the dry acid. Only one way to find out.
    Really? I thought the method of interaction was well known???

  2. #22
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    Feb 2006
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    Massillon, Ohio
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    Default Re: Another Propane Fogger Oxalic Acid Idea

    I've seen a few different theories to explain it, but nothing scientifically conclusive yet.
    To everything there is a season....

  3. #23
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    Dec 2002
    Location
    Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany
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    829

    Default Re: Another Propane Fogger Oxalic Acid Idea

    Captahome

    Dribbling and evaporation are two total different ways.

    When you dribble the acid on the bees, they have to clean each other and the acid-sugar solution ends up in there stomach. This is hard on the bees and shorten the life. You should do it only on time per bee generation, that means, during summer maximal every approx 7 weeks. During wintertime, a second acid treatment can kill the bees within a few weeks.

    With a vaporizer you create an acid fog inside the hive, that's why the hive must be closed for at least 10 minutes after evaporation otherwise bees blow the fog out the hive.
    After 10 minutes the fog is gone, but everything in the hive is covert with microscopic fine acid drops. As soon as mites coming in contact with this acid it kills them, no harm to the bees. The acid is outside on the bees and not in there stomach, that's why we can treat ones a week.

    When using a torch with blower or a pipe, there can be a big problem for the beekeeper... and with the result. First you work close to the hive in the acid fog and can't stay away like with the electric vaporizer.
    If you are not slowly heating up, the acid in the pipe it is destroyed from overheating before it can come out the pipe. You see smoke coming out, but this is most from the water that the acid contains. If you see white powder left in the pipe, that is ash and an indicator your treatment might bring you not the result you are looking for.

    I have a Heiser JB200 with an open pan and approx 5-6 meter wire (15feet) that works great, the acid is gone in the hive before it is destroyed from the heat. Use a long wire and stay away from the hive.

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Springfield, Ohio, USA
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    458

    Default Re: Another Propane Fogger Oxalic Acid Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Gillmore View Post
    I'm afraid I missed those discussions. Will the acid left behind after water evaporates from a mixed solution be the same as acid that has been heated and vaporized?

    I should have paid more attention in Chemistry class.
    It would be the same substance
    Pete. New 2013, 7 hives, zone 6a
    To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous.

  5. #25
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    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
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    2,118

    Default Re: Another Propane Fogger Oxalic Acid Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by Axtmann View Post
    After 10 minutes the fog is gone, but everything in the hive is covert with microscopic fine acid drops. As soon as mites coming in contact with this acid it kills them, no harm to the bees.
    My research tells me that it is not "instant contact" with the OA that kills the mites, rather is over a period of several days.
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for the Varrox Vaporizer, "One of the highest ranked" by R. Oliver

  6. #26
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    Dec 2008
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    SOMERSET, ENGLAND
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    335

    Default Re: Another Propane Fogger Oxalic Acid Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    My research tells me that it is not "instant contact" with the OA that kills the mites, rather is over a period of several days.
    My observations with using the sublimation method is that it does continue for a few days, but the biggest kill of mites is over the first 24 hours after treatment, if the bees are broodless the mites are pretty much all dead after three days.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Jackson, MO
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    1,858

    Default Re: Another Propane Fogger Oxalic Acid Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by TWall View Post
    Unless you have a colony you didn't mind sacrificing I would be leery of trying a new delivery system.

    Tom
    Correct, Tom. It seems capathome is assuming the risk and not asking anyone else to try this...and yes, I'd be a little leery as well. But God bless this adventurous beekeeper and his pioneeering bravado! As a former fogger of FGMO + E.O.s, he's caught my curiosity. I found fogging FGMO did not improve my hives per mite counts and fell back to smoking sumac berries. Fogging OA may work, maybe not. Who is to know until someone steps up to the plate and takes a swing.

    Hope to hear a follow up report.

    Grant
    Jackson, MO https://www.createspace.com/4111886
    Beekeeping With Twenty-five Hives: https://www.createspace.com/4152725

  8. #28
    Join Date
    May 2011
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    Baden Wurtemburg Germany
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    150

    Default Re: Another Propane Fogger Oxalic Acid Idea

    here is something to consider

    " Vaporized OA does form tiny spiky crystals, as does OA evaporated from a water solution. But oxalic dissolved in sugar syrup dries to a clear, smooth, candy that shows no crystal structure (personal microscopic observations). The rub is, OA is only effective when dribbled in a sugar solution (Anon 1999), not in plain water. So go figure! " Randy Oliver.

    Finding the right carrier maybe the key.
    Stephen 26 hives. 4th year. Treat. Germany.

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Mcarthur, Ohio,USA
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    14

    Default Re: Another Propane Fogger Oxalic Acid Idea

    Thanks for the confirmation Chemguy. I thought it should be the same.

    So does OA kill as a contact pesticide ie. acid burn on the exoskeleton of the mite? Or the sharp crystals scraping away the exoskeleton, similar to diatomaceous earth?
    Does the OA in a dribble syrup have a different mode of action with the mite or is it just a sticky acid? Everything in the hive is coated with wax and a plain water OA solution would roll on down the frame and drop out the hive. So the sugar is there just to make it stick to the frames and bees?

    capathome

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Mcarthur, Ohio,USA
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    14

    Default Re: Another Propane Fogger Oxalic Acid Idea

    So I spent the morning in the workshop tinkering with the Burgess propane fogger. It turns out that I cannot get this apparatus to produce the kind of steamy fog that I had hoped. It does fantastic with oil based products like FGMO but will only spit and sputter with a straight water solution.

    FWIW, I tested the pump mechanism and mine produces exactly 2 grams of water per squeeze of the pump trigger. Thought this was going to be a no brainer!

    The back pressure in the heated tubes allows some of the dose to return to the supply tank so the metering cannot be trusted in use. It also superheated some of the steam as it exited the nozzle so frying some bees would be a given.

    As an experiment, I set up an old deep with 10 dummy frames made of 3/4 inch plywood to simulate the hive. I then shot the fogger into the opening above the landing board. With a plexiglass top, I could visually confirm that what steam the fogger did produce was very well distributed throughout the hive with very few heavy spots. It easily coated the underside of the plexiglass with a very fine mist.

    So my conclusion is that distributing OA as a fine mist/fog delivered through the front opening will evenly coat the frames and bees if I can get the apparatus to produce it.

    Just for jollies, I picked up a gravity feed paint gun. These are hooked to an air compressor. Using the same deep box/frame set up, I was able to deliver a superfine fog of mist into the box. If the truck was close to the apiary and I hauled around my portable air compressor, I might be tempted to try this at some point.
    But, the whole exercise was about being easy to use and portable so for those, I call it a bust. Unless I can find an oil based carrier for the OA??????

    capathome

  11. #31
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    Feb 2006
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    Massillon, Ohio
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    Default Re: Another Propane Fogger Oxalic Acid Idea

    You don't think that FGMO would work?
    To everything there is a season....

  12. #32
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    Sep 2011
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    Mcarthur, Ohio,USA
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    Default Re: Another Propane Fogger Oxalic Acid Idea

    I dont think the acid will mix with an oil. Most acids are degreasers. Maybe chemguy can help with the quest?
    capathome

  13. #33
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    May 2009
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    Flora,IL
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    Default Re: Another Propane Fogger Oxalic Acid Idea

    sounds to me like others have already tried this and settled on the vaporizer.... buy two.... it goes faster! and its really simple....

  14. #34
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    Feb 2006
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    Massillon, Ohio
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    Default Re: Another Propane Fogger Oxalic Acid Idea

    Don't give up yet. You never know what you might stumble upon.

    I wonder what they thought about the first guy who tried incinerating acid in his beehive.
    To everything there is a season....

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Springfield, Ohio, USA
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    458

    Default Re: Another Propane Fogger Oxalic Acid Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by capathome View Post
    Thanks for the confirmation Chemguy. I thought it should be the same.

    So does OA kill as a contact pesticide ie. acid burn on the exoskeleton of the mite? Or the sharp crystals scraping away the exoskeleton, similar to diatomaceous earth?
    capathome
    I think that it is a contact pesticide. Aren't mite exoskeleta less robust than those of insects? If so, mites would be more susceptible to damage by OA than bees. That is an educated guess. As to whether it is the acidity (burning), mechanical aspects (cutting) , or metabolic toxicity (poison) of OA that is at work, I am not sure if that is known with certainty. I'd love to know.
    Pete. New 2013, 7 hives, zone 6a
    To study and not think is a waste. To think and not study is dangerous.

  16. #36
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    Sep 2011
    Location
    Mcarthur, Ohio,USA
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    14

    Default Re: Another Propane Fogger Oxalic Acid Idea

    Oh I have not given up yet! I could modify the input side of the fogger. Still thinking about it.
    capathome

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Jefferson Co, TX
    Posts
    637

    Default Re: Another Propane Fogger Oxalic Acid Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by capathome View Post
    Just for jollies, I picked up a gravity feed paint gun. These are hooked to an air compressor. Using the same deep box/frame set up, I was able to deliver a superfine fog of mist into the box. If the truck was close to the apiary and I hauled around my portable air compressor, I might be tempted to try this at some point.
    But, the whole exercise was about being easy to use and portable so for those, I call it a bust. Unless I can find an oil based carrier for the OA?capathome
    That cheap plastic air hose comes in 50 foot rolls and 100 foot rolls are easy to assemble. Just remember inhaling the vapor or mist is a significant risk from what I read.
    Started 9/13, building slowly, now @ 7 Lang hives + 5 nucs, and treatment style not decided yet

  18. #38
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    Nov 2009
    Location
    Manning, SC
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    2,118

    Default Re: Another Propane Fogger Oxalic Acid Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by marshmasterpat View Post
    Just remember inhaling the vapor or mist is a significant risk from what I read.
    A VERY significant risk!!!!! Wear a mask and use goggles and gloves!
    http://OxaVap.com
    Your source for the Varrox Vaporizer, "One of the highest ranked" by R. Oliver

  19. #39
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    Dec 2008
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    SOMERSET, ENGLAND
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    Default Re: Another Propane Fogger Oxalic Acid Idea

    Quote Originally Posted by snl View Post
    A VERY significant risk!!!!! Wear a mask and use goggles and gloves!
    I agree, and also use full face respirator,gloves ect, but some research states the risks are not that high.

    Evaporation of oxalic acid - a safe method for the user?
    T. Gumpp, K.Drysch, M. Radjaipour, P. C. Dartsch (2003)

    Thus, based upon the presented data, a commercial apiarist could use oxalic
    acid treatments during the whole year 40 hours a week without damaging his
    health.

    Meaning of the results to apiarist's practice With evaporation- and
    spraying-procedure of oxalic acid, beekeepers have possibilities of
    treatment against varroatosis whose effectiveness and bee compatibility have
    already convincingly been proven [11]. However, there were concerns that in
    particular the evaporation procedure was injurious to user's health.

    Overcautious scientists therefore warned about evaporating oxalic acid or
    recommended preventive measures which made the procedure unpractical, e.g.
    wearing ABC protection equipment. The presented study dispelled reservations
    against both procedures concerning possible health risks, appropriate
    application presupposed.





    http://tinyurl.com/yaxszga

  20. #40
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Flora,IL
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    Default Re: Another Propane Fogger Oxalic Acid Idea

    Makes even less sense..... hauling the battery around is too much work, so we give that up for a highly expermental and possible dangerous method that requires a air compressor, power supply and hose??

    Way to much reinventing the wheel, and i LOVE new ideas......(several patents in my name)

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