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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Jefferson Co, TX
    Posts
    705

    Default Re: Breeder queens to play with

    Quote Originally Posted by JSL View Post
    They want bees that are bullet proof.
    Joe
    Who is shooting at the bees?

    Sorry but couldn't pass it up.

    However Harry and Joe - your thoughts make sense to me.
    Started 9/13, building slowly, now @ 7 Lang hives + 5 nucs, and treatment style not decided yet

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Suffolk, VA
    Posts
    2,667

    Default Re: Breeder queens to play with

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryVanderpool View Post
    took their eyes off of good bees.
    Harry thanks for the reply. I certainly respect your knowledge and experience. As Joe pointed out, it must be difficult to serve two markets with different preferences. I suspect that a breeder whose customers are mainly hobbyists can focus on a different list of priorities that you listed above, where those who serve mostly commercial better darn well provide a bee that is productive and keep that product consistent year to year. I also believe that good queen breeders should (I think as Joe pointed out) have an incubator line(s) within their operation that is NOT for sale but used for evaluation purposes only. Over time, if proven desirable, this incubator line could be slowly integrated into an existing production line. Time certainly is against us, as these evaluations must be done across multiple seasons and in numbers to have statistical meaning. Certainly II is an essential tool for anyone attempting this level of breeding.
    Horseshoe Point Honey -- http://localvahoney.com/

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Southern Oregon
    Posts
    1,162

    Default Re: Breeder queens to play with

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryVanderpool View Post
    Hmmm.... :-(

    First of all the harbo queens don't interest me in the least.
    And "interesting" un proven stock doesn't either.
    It is always a gamble when we buy queens fron a new source...
    ...but just willy / nilly falling through outerspace with no vector is just a no no.
    :-/
    Whoa! Who said anything about willy nilly. All stock we trial is thoroughly vetted and vigorously selected. That is how we got to where we are today... Pretty dang good bees from what I hear.
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Southern Oregon
    Posts
    1,162

    Default Re: Breeder queens to play with

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryVanderpool View Post
    Brandy, i will soon be picking out my breeders from hives that stand out, head and shoulders, THE BEST of our outfit, based on honey production from 2012, , excellent patterns / populations and otherwise no obvious problems. And of course, gentlness.
    We will get a good look at these queens in almonds and then again in March and then comes first graft.

    Why would we assume that sending a big fat check for a breeder queen will produce anything better than that which I just decribed?
    What could possibly be better in production than the best, based on track record?
    Sorry, I just don't get it.
    This is how we do it to also. Except with the best producers I let the mites challenge them, do some sampling and pick the best that have the best buildup the following year(s).

    You do bring up a good point though. Out of all the breeders I have ever purchased over the years none have ever been as good the ones selected from our own operation. This is to be expected considering acclimation to local conditions and management practices. We want to evaluate the daughters and hybrids and make selections from there.

    Sometimes we just want to develop a specific trait in our "proven stock" and also avoid inbreeding. Many would argue that maintaining the maximum number of alleles is an essential breeding practice for honeybees to maintain high brood viability and keep genes in the population that may be useful in some future situation, condition, disease, or pest invasion. We never know what future pest or disease is around the bend. Diversity is good and essential in our bee population.
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Southern Oregon
    Posts
    1,162

    Default Re: Breeder queens to play with

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryVanderpool View Post
    Thanks, Joe.
    Here's what I'm griping about:
    Several years ago we had a certain researcher / queen breeder speak at the Oregon Conference about SMR or VHS or whatever mite resistant queen of the day.
    He made no bones about it, that in order to arrive at their goal, they STRICTLY FOCUSED ON THE SINGLE TRAIT.
    Many of us worry that such efforts are turning back all of the hard work that has been done in the past to arrive at very good workable, productive and gentle stock.
    If given a wish-list of traits that I want in my queens, mite resistance places DEAD LAST.
    1) Good laying / pattern
    2) Overwintering
    3) Honey production
    4) Gentlness
    5) Not overly swarmy
    6) No chalk, disease prone etc
    7) Mite resistant.
    Theres my list.
    How does a Harbo queen do in light of that list?
    From what I have observed, quite well based on last years daughters and previous inclusions of VSH/SMR breeders over the years. Instead of turning back hard work, maybe we can stand on the shoulders of giants and reach even greater heights.
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Southern Oregon
    Posts
    1,162

    Default Re: Breeder queens to play with

    " Thumbs Up Oregon Super Queens!

    Here are a couple of pictures taken today December 21 of 5 frame nucs overwintered with Old Sol Oregon Super queens.
    WOW am I ever happy with these queens so far.
    Am I ever going to be glad to have these to use in almonds.
    Super good job by John Jacob of Old Sol Industries, Rogue River Oregon!!!

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...ps50148d20.jpg

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...ps6398faf3.jpg
    " Harry Vanderpool

    We have incorporated some SMR/VSH plus Russian stock over the years to get here. There is a lot of other stock and heavy selection involved also. We really share the same needs in a bee that can do its job and pay the bills. As marker assisted selection becomes more widely available for honeybees we should see some rapid advances in bee breeding. I strive to produce a VERY productive bee that can maintain lower mite loads. I feel bee breeding is a life long quest and that it is good to strive for more.
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Apr 2013
    Location
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts
    1,342

    Default Re: Breeder queens to play with

    Quote Originally Posted by HarryVanderpool View Post
    Thanks, Joe.
    Here's what I'm griping about:
    Several years ago we had a certain researcher / queen breeder speak at the Oregon Conference about SMR or VHS or whatever mite resistant queen of the day.
    He made no bones about it, that in order to arrive at their goal, they STRICTLY FOCUSED ON THE SINGLE TRAIT.
    Many of us worry that such efforts are turning back all of the hard work that has been done in the past to arrive at very good workable, productive and gentle stock.
    If given a wish-list of traits that I want in my queens, mite resistance places DEAD LAST.
    1) Good laying / pattern
    2) Overwintering
    3) Honey production
    4) Gentlness
    5) Not overly swarmy
    6) No chalk, disease prone etc
    7) Mite resistant.
    Theres my list.
    How does a Harbo queen do in light of that list?
    Reading various threads it seems that 2 and 7 on this wish list are closely linked in reality.
    Janne....first hives April 2013, 19 hives, treat, plant zone 8b, at sea level, latitude 49.13, longitude 123.06

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Campbell River, BC, CA
    Posts
    530

    Default Re: Breeder queens to play with

    Quote Originally Posted by WBVC View Post
    Reading various threads it seems that 2 and 7 on this wish list are closely linked in reality.
    I dont think so. If the beekeeper does a beekeepers job, then mite resistance has little impact on overwintering. Just make sure there are little / no mites in the hive headed into winter. There are two trains of thought in that respect, one train of thought is 'let the bees deal with it', and the other train of thought is 'I will deal with the mites, and let the bees deal with winter'.

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