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  1. #41

    Default Re: Medium Supers...Is 6 5/8 height critical?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    You guys aren't metric their in Finland?

    Heated timber? Is that what we here call kiln dried lumber?
    Yes, metric. Actually, I just remembered, that a friend of mine just recently insisted, that 6mm (~1/4") beespace is normal in all boxes in Finland. Not my idea

    The "heated timber" is quite recent invention, timber is heated to 190-220 C and then gradually cooled. Water evaporats and lignine starts to dismantle. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...iferol.svg.png
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

  2. #42

    Default Re: Medium Supers...Is 6 5/8 height critical?

    Quote Originally Posted by RudyT View Post
    Juhani, what "size" bees do you have in Finland, and what breed of bees?
    Is the brood comb cell size 5.4 mm or 5.1 or 4.9, or something else?
    In USA 4.9 mm would be called small cell--there is an argument that AFTER Langstroth's 3/8" the bees have been made larger via foundation size.
    I'm just wondering if bee space would depend a little on bee size?
    My cell size is 5,3mm and I think it is very natural to our climate. All animals get bigger towards the polar areas.
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    6,711

    Default Re: Medium Supers...Is 6 5/8 height critical?

    More info on "heat treated" lumber mentioned above:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wood_pr...eat_treatments
    This is not the same as "kiln dried" lumber.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Evansville, IN
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    2,571

    Default Re: Medium Supers...Is 6 5/8 height critical?

    I could easily be wrong, but I thought that bee space was 1/4" to 3/8" (roughly 8 to 12 mm). Smaller gaps can be hard for the bees to get through, and they will tend to propolise them closed, wider than that range and they build drone comb in it.

    I only have much burr comb built between deeps, for some reason my Kelley boxes all violate bee space since the gap between the bottom for the frames in the top box and the top of the frames in the bottom box is 1/2". Don't know what, but it is. I make my own frames deeper so they closer to 3/8" apart, we will see if that makes a difference.

    Needless to say, bees don't read books (or this website) and will do whatever they want. If you have bees that like to close things up with propolis, they may very well close up spaces wider than 1/4" - my brother's hive closed off the Porter Bee escape hole in his top cover one year and built their own entrance reducer in the fall closing off most of the bottom entrance. Both gaps were much more than 1/4".

    My advise on making boxes is to try to keep the gap between bottom and top bars as close to 3/8" as possible. This gives you some "variation in parts" room so that if you make the end bars a bit long or to boxes a bit short you can still use them. I'm personally concerned that less than 1/4" will prevent movement by the bees between the frames, and I really don't want to try to pry a box off with 10 frames propolized together.

    Peter

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    28,284

    Default Re: Medium Supers...Is 6 5/8 height critical?

    I advise you to take psfred's advice.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  6. #46
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    San Mateo, CA
    Posts
    5,041

    Default Re: Medium Supers...Is 6 5/8 height critical?

    I have boxes I made and bought in the mid and late '70s. At that time, we felt boxes being supplied by the Diamond Match Company in Chico were too deep at 9 5/8". We cut them down to 9 1/2", giving them a 3/8" combined bee space. Thirty plus years later those boxes have shrunk and the frames hang out the bottom.

    You people fret so much about fractions of an inch or mm.

    Small Cell VS Large cell,
    1 3/8" frame spacing VS 1 1/4" frame spacing,
    beespace 1 1/4" VS 5/16" beespace VS 3/8 beespace",
    14" wide eight frame boxes VS 13 3/4" eight frame boxes.

    In forty years, or sooner, you will realize it is all irrelevant and you have spent years on BeeSource arguing about it for nothing.

    Of course, what else would we do with our spare time?

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
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    10,151

    Default Re: Medium Supers...Is 6 5/8 height critical?

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    In forty years, or sooner, you will realize it is all irrelevant and you have spent years on BeeSource arguing about it for nothing.
    You sound like an old beekeeper.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  8. #48
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    San Mateo, CA
    Posts
    5,041

    Default Re: Medium Supers...Is 6 5/8 height critical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    You sound like an old beekeeper.
    Got my first hives in 1970, 20 years old. Still have some of the boxes, they been filled with honey every year since. And a few were probably 30 years old when I got them.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    46,742

    Default Re: Medium Supers...Is 6 5/8 height critical?

    >In USA 4.9 mm would be called small cell--there is an argument that AFTER Langstroth's 3/8" the bees have been made larger via foundation size.

    Maybe 3/8" is a better bet with large bees than 1/4"...

    >I'm just wondering if bee space would depend a little on bee size?

    A little. On comb spacing more so because smaller cell size means thinner comb (as in less deep brood cells--Baudoux mapped this out back at the turn of the 19th to the 20th centuries).
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
    Posts
    28,284

    Default Re: Medium Supers...Is 6 5/8 height critical?

    In Lawrence John Connor's article in ABJ this month he talks about bes space and LL Langstroth's determination of it.

    "Langstroth's hive was based upon movable frames that honored and respected bee space -- the thickness of two worker bees on opposite combs that allows them to work without bumping into each other -- while not wasting space. In the western honey bee this space is about 3/8ths of an inch (9.5-10mm)."

    I note the word "about". I think that word is important to keep in mind. Very few things in beekeeping, or in life for that matter, are exact or hard and fast.

    [interestingly Lawrence John Connor in ABJ is the same person as Larry Connor in Bee Culture. Editorial standard perhaps? I never noticed that before. shows how observant I am. ]
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



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