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  1. #81
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Because we all want it reformed.
    Why does this "reform" process require WLC to make up 'facts'? Why claim that those 3 organizations represent a majority of US beekeepers when they clearly do not?

    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  2. #82
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Who does? Anybody?
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  3. #83
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Rader, name one beekeeper who doesn't want the EPA process reformed.

  4. #84
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    OT:

    If you want a sensible discussion, don't ask 'strawman' questions about what should be the replacement.
    But the replacement is fundamental. A ban will not happen till there is a replacement.

    Claiming there is something wrong with the EPA, and talking process, is just an attempt to sideline that fact.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  5. #85
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    OT:

    If you were ask me which pesticide technology is most likely to replace neonicotinoid chemistry, I would say RNAi.

    I've followed Monsanto's acquisition of some leading biotechnology companies, and some key scientists.

    However, I don't have a crystal ball, and Monsanto is notoriously unpredictable.

  6. #86
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    OK, well at least it's an answer.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  7. #87
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    OK, well at least it's an answer.
    Think of it as an informed opinion.

  8. #88
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    I have no idea if you are informed.

    What I can tell you, is genetic modification may be a way forward. But it will likely attract just as many or more detractors, as neonicitiniods. The public opinion problem will not go away.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  9. #89
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    GM crops are, well, already genetically modified.

    Some might see the advantage of uncoated seeds, since their pesticide is already built in like Bt, as a clear improvement on coated seed technology.

  10. #90
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    Collinsville, VA
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    In short, "It's not my job, man".
    I walked away for a while and am late to the party but couldn't let this one go. This same person I met with Syngenta told me that neonics increase food yields by 15% by allowing complete germination and killing the nematodes that routinely feed on seed before it germinates. Let's say that was biased and knock that down to 10%. Ban neonics and the next year you have a 10% supply/demand imbalance. What will that mean? Higher prices on food. Higher prices on fuel (thanks to ethanol). In year 2 what will happen is 10% more land will be plowed up to meet the demand. That's 10% less bee habitat across the country and likely a 10% decline in the number of colonies out there. In an effort to "save the bees" the opposite will happen.

    There are too many linkages in this world to sit back and say "It's not my job, man!".

  11. #91
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    GM crops are, well, already genetically modified.

    Some might see the advantage of uncoated seeds, since their pesticide is already built in like Bt, as a clear improvement on coated seed technology.
    Agree, possibly the majority will see it that way. But there will be, and are, detractors. In many cases the very same activists.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  12. #92
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hokie Bee Daddy View Post
    I walked away for a while and am late to the party but couldn't let this one go. This same person I met with Syngenta told me that neonics increase food yields by 15% by allowing complete germination and killing the nematodes that routinely feed on seed before it germinates. Let's say that was biased and knock that down to 10%. Ban neonics and the next year you have a 10% supply/demand imbalance. What will that mean? Higher prices on food. Higher prices on fuel (thanks to ethanol). In year 2 what will happen is 10% more land will be plowed up to meet the demand. That's 10% less bee habitat across the country and likely a 10% decline in the number of colonies out there. In an effort to "save the bees" the opposite will happen.

    There are too many linkages in this world to sit back and say "It's not my job, man!".
    Talking to farmers about crop rotation and IPM isn't my job either. Nor is it the Syngenta reps job.

    Although I have no problems suggesting planting pollinator friendly crop varieties with pollinator friendly field edges/margins and hedge rows.

    That might just take up some of the 'yield' slack.

  13. #93
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    But the thread is not about crop rotation. The issue was you were advancing an argument but did not consider it your job to support it or take it to a logical conclusion.

    Anyhow, you since have, with a suggestion of genetic modification. Which is a viable option although likely just as controversial.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  14. #94
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    When it comes to the continuous use of various neonic coated seeds and Honeybee losses (aka CCD), then of course IPM, crop rotation, and sustainable permaculture, enter the argument.

    Remember, you asked for the alternatives, not me.

  15. #95
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    <<When it comes to the continuous use of various neonic coated seeds and Honeybee losses (aka CCD), then of course IPM, crop rotation, and sustainable permaculture, enter the argument.

    The market will decide what alternatives, if any, are viable. The question is what will be the new costs (aka prices) and will the incremental benefits outweigh the incremental costs. Hopefully these impacts from the European experiment will be factored into any decision.

  16. #96
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Yet, Charlie, they keep planting the same crops, over and over again, with the same set of neonic coats.

    That's just greed. No real IPM in sight.

  17. #97
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    That's just greed. No real IPM in sight.
    Greed? Do you believe that really? Why do you think they are being greedy?

    They are just lowering their costs like every other farmer. Do you take opportunities to lower your costs and are you being "greedy" when you do?

  18. #98
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    It's just a business model.

    And, continuously planting neonic coated seeds, year after year, is the issue at hand.

    You can't claim the moral high ground with that.

  19. #99
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Likewise they don't deserve to be ran through the dirt either and calling them "greedy" does that.

    Farmers prices are set by the market and the market won't pay them more for using non-neonic coated seeds. They make what they make by lowering their cost. If they don't match every other competitor's cost structure they go out of business. It's capitalism.

  20. #100
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    SOMERSET, ENGLAND
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    And, continuously planting neonic coated seeds, year after year, is the issue at hand.
    And over here the farmers are going to be using more foliar sprays, which is a real worry, and lots more bees and other pollinators are going to be killed, not had any problems with the neonics, so hope the ban gets lifted, or they find something else as good.

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