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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    WLC
    >I would characterize the public outcry on Honeybee losses as a majority view.<

    Your vocal majority at least in the west is restricted to small groups, mostly with an environmental bend. My experience, whether it is bees or the environment, the majority does not care. What gets their attention is the cost of living.

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Someone might call you out as being a vocal minority, with right-wing extremist views.
    within the beesource community it's pretty clear who is the vocal minority with extremist views.

    and it's a shame, because the dialogue is stifled by extremists, on both sides.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  3. #63
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    If I could pick one thing to remove from the world, Neonics, CCD, or Mites. It would be mites no questions about it. If that happened I think the other two would mysteriously disappear. JMHO I think it is just easier to point fingers at the big bad chemical companies.

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    so what is your understanding of ccd? and how it relates to pesticides? what do you think about the hype?
    Personally, I've never seen the ramifications of CCD, and my reasoning for this was because I only have one hive that I take extra good care of and is very healthy (and unfortunately very hot). Also, my bees aren't being subjected to nearly the same degree of pesticides as in more rural areas, so I can't say off my own experiences how CCD is affecting beeks in my area.
    Part of the reason I began to keep bees was I my concern with their well-being across the continent and I knew I could provide a substantial service to the species and still go about all the fun and interesting parts to beekeeping. If the hype got me onto the bandwagon to contribute to the beek community, I'd say its a boon for the beek world.
    Still, what I know about CCD is all subjective and what I've read online. There is no single disease causing the collapses, but there are a collection of factors working against hives to cause their failure, and subsequently the failure of large beek businesses that rely on their honey crop for their livelihood. I'm blind into the inner workings of CCD because as I've said, I've had to read off of other people's accounts of failure, but any motion towards bolstering the honeybee populations in the country should be welcome.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    "It's not my job, man".
    That's all you got?

    You have absolutely no idea?

    Drmanhadan. As an alternative to neonicitiniods is fundamental if they are to be banned, perhaps you must know?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    "National Honey Bee Advisory Board, American Honey Producers Association, and the American Beekeeping Federation."

    These industry organizations can't be categorized as Environmentalist or Liberal.

    Yet, they're the ones who have filed the action.

    They certainly represent a majority of U.S. beekeepers.

    So, who do you naysayers represent? Not me. Not U.S. beekeepers.

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post

    Drmanhadan. As an alternative to neonicitiniods is fundamental if they are to be banned, perhaps you must know?
    What's the question asking?

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    That's all you got?
    You have absolutely no idea?
    Drmanhadan. As an alternative to neonicitiniods is fundamental if they are to be banned, perhaps you must know?
    That's the same tired, old 'strawman' argument that keeps getting pulled out.

    Once the EPA pesticide approval process is reformed to better protect both native and managed pollinators, we'll have an answer to the 'acceptable pesticide alternatives'. The process must change first.

    Let's hope that the legal challenge to the EPA process by the major U.S. Beekeeping organizations is, in fact, successful.

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    That's all you got? You have absolutely no idea?
    Let's not get into it w/ each other when we could be exchanging ideas. The spiral is always downward. Let's not get trapped in old arguments. Okay?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    The process must change first.
    Strawman.

    You and Drmanhadan have no idea what to use as an alternative to neonicitiniods.

    You guys need to put your thinking caps on, because if there is no alternative, you are wasting your time calling for a ban.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by drmanhadan View Post
    Personally, I've never seen the ramifications of CCD, and my reasoning for this was because I only have one hive that I take extra good care of and is very healthy (and unfortunately very hot). Also, my bees aren't being subjected to nearly the same degree of pesticides as in more rural areas, so I can't say off my own experiences how CCD is affecting beeks in my area.
    You need to check out the labels at your local garden center to see how widespread the use of these products are in the beautiful lawns and gardens of suburbia. To make matters worse, no licensing is required for the millions of homeowners that purchase these products. Only the disclaimer to "read and follow all label directions carefully". You live in ground zero, scary huh?
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    gmcharlie:

    Those beekeeping organizations do represent you. They've got plenty of 'real life experience'.

    And, they've filed suit this December in California.

    Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Strawman.

    You and Drmanhadan have no idea what to use as an alternative to neonicitiniods.

    You guys need to put your thinking caps on, because if there is no alternative, you are wasting your time calling for a ban.
    What's wrong with finding the root of a problem? Is it pointless to search for an alternative?

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    "National Honey Bee Advisory Board, American Honey Producers Association, and the American Beekeeping Federation."

    [snip]

    They certainly represent a majority of U.S. beekeepers.
    More bad information from WLC! Here are the real numbers:

    ABF: 1000 members
    http://www.abfnet.org/displaycommon....barticlenbr=37

    AHPA: 400 members
    http://www.ahpanet.com/?page=AboutUs

    National Honey Bee Advisory Board
    http://www.nhbab.com/members.html
    composed of members from the AFB and AHPA.

    So, we actually have two organizations with 1400 members total (by their count).



    .... 1400 members is a majority of US beekeepers? .....


    Last edited by Barry; 12-29-2013 at 12:03 PM.
    -- Victor Hugo -- "Common sense is in spite of, not the result of, education.

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    "National Honey Bee Advisory Board, American Honey Producers Association, and the American Beekeeping Federation."

    Yet, they're the ones who have filed the action.
    by 'action' you must be referring the petition to the epa to correct inadequacies to the labeling protections on certain pesticides. the epa readily acknowledged the problem and promptly took corrective action.

    good for the beekeeping organizations, good for the epa, good for beekeepers and the public at large.

    to characterize that u.s. beekeepers en masse are suing the epa over neonics is, well, the kind of hyperbolic spin that seekers of the truth like dan need to be wary of.

    i'm personally disappointed for allowing myself to get dragged once again into this useless tit for tat with you wlc.

    "that's all i have to say about that" forrest forrest gump
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Sqkcrk, point taken.

    However the reason neonicitiniods are being used is because at this time they are the best alternative.

    Calling for a ban does not change that. If the argument is they should be just banned, But there is no alternative, the person advancing the argument should not be surprised that few are buying into it.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by drmanhadan View Post
    What's wrong with finding the root of a problem? Is it pointless to search for an alternative?
    Absolutely not, I'm in complete agreement with you. To ban neonicitiniods we must search for an alternative. You are correct.

    What is the alternative?

    Is there one?

    This is fundamental to the whole argument.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  18. #78
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Rader:

    Can you name one single U.S. beekeeper who doesn't want the current EPA pesticide approval process reformed to better protect both native and managed pollinators?

    Can't do it?

    Because we all want it reformed.

  19. #79
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Why ask people questions, when if I ask you one, you just shrug your shoulders and say "not my job, man"

    A sensible discussion requires both sides provide sensible input. At least, if that side wants to be taken seriously.

    The history of the use of insecticides, is that as new and better ones are developed, the old ones are discarded. If / when there is a better alternative, neonicitiniods will be discarded, and chat site banter will not be required to achieve that.

    And that has happened, and will happen, despite the claimed failings of the regulatory boards, which are mostly conspiracy theory.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    OT:

    If you want a sensible discussion, don't ask 'strawman' questions about what should be the replacement.

    Once the EPA pesticide approval process is reformed to protect both native and managed pollinators, then we'll know which pesticides are available.

    Frankly, it might not be a chemical, it could be a totally new technology, like RNAi.

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