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  1. #41
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    Aug 2005
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    Washington County, Maine
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    CCD is a set of symptoms that as i think about them come down to a reduction of quality natural forage opportunities. Pesticides and the neonics are one contributing factor. I haven't read the di Prisco, et al study referenced by WLC so it may be that the neonics are worse (cause more harm) than we have so far concluded. But I think of far more importance is our attitude towards the natural world - humans don't know everything yet - and our best science sometimes gets it wrong.

    I wish I had all the answers but I don't. Humility, taking the time to look at the motives for 'cide use, remembering that miticides are often used by beekeepers and that there often are competing motives, are a few of the things I try to keep in mind when discussing this topic.

    Oh and @drmanhandan sqkcrk is an abbreviation of the name of Mark's apiary.

  2. #42
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    my apologies to you drmanhadan. here's what i think about the hype and how it has manifested itself on beesource;

    it's complicated, but in my relatively short time on the forum there have been a number of contributors here putting forth the notion that ccd is caused by neonics like it was a proven fact or something, the reality is that it is not anywhere near that clear cut. some of those folks ended up getting banned, or just quit after the imformed members on the forum called them out on it.

    even the scientists and politicians across the european union involved with getting the temporary ban on neonics there admitted that they had no clear evidence linking colony collapse in general, (which includes ccd, a specific type of colony collapse), and exposure to neonics.

    environmental activists in europe whose political agenda was aimed at getting neonics banned, (mostly for reasons that had nothing to do with beekeeping), adopted the honey bee and ccd as their poster child. they were able to stir up enough public fury over the false premise that neonics causing the extinction of honeybees that the politicians caved in and put the ban in place. even though they admittedly didn't have the evidence that neonics caused ccd they adopted the two year ban anyway based on what they termed the 'precautionary principle'.

    a similar public opinion campaign is now underway in the u.s. it takes the form of hokey magazine articles and sensationalized tv documentaries. if that is all you have been exposed to then your perception of the issue will be based on the effective spinning that has been done by those promoting this agenda. it's surprising how many of my honey customers have heard about this and ask me if the chemicals are hurting my bees.

    to which i reply, 'we don't know for sure, the scientists haven't got it all figured out, but for some reason it's not happening as much now as it did, and it's looking like there are likely other problems involved besides the chemicals'.

    no, i haven't seen ccd in my colonies and no, i don't anybody that has around where i live.
    only one beesource member that i can remember has reported ccd type losses several years back, but i don't think it's happened to him since.

    we don't know dan. i'm not saying the neonics don't play a role. pesticides can and do cause problems for bees. but the smart money is on neonics are not the cause of ccd, and may not be be the primary cause of general colony collapse.

    i hope you take the time to read what randy oliver had to say about this in the link i provided you above. he does a good job in describing what we think we know about the dangers and/or lack thereof when it comes to all pesticides including neonics.

    my apology to you is because when i first read your posts, i thought that you may have been one of those pushing neonics cause ccd because of a political agenda. after searching through your previous posts i can see how that is not very likely. i regret jumping to that conclusion, and i hope this helps you with your quest to know more about it.
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  3. #43
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    Apr 2013
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    High Springs, FL
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    35

    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    The EPA is more concerned with making sure that bayer/monsanto is happy than protecting the environment. I thought everyone already knew that...

  4. #44
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    Mar 2010
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    Walker, Alabama, USA
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    774

    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdax View Post
    The EPA is more concerned with making sure that bayer/monsanto is happy than protecting the environment. I thought everyone already knew that...
    ...er...proof would be nice.



    Rusty
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper & Rusty's Bees ( LC and T)

  5. #45
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    Feb 2006
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    Herrick, SD USA
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    4,035

    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    I am subscribing to this thread primarily to compliment Andrew Dewey and Squarepeg on posts # 41 and 42. It encourages me when thoughtful people take the time to give us thoughtful posts.
    To the op: Listen and learn from all sides on this matter. Don't oversimplify what is a very complex issue. No one is "knowingly catalyzing a bee apocalypse". There is much that we know about bee health but also much we don't know. As a beekeeper who has lost thousands of hives to pesticide spray way back in the 1970's and 80's I have experienced massive bee losses through the irresponsible use of chemicals. I understand the needs for the current systemics that are widely used in the world. There is a need in agriculture to control pests and its tricky trying to kill bad insects without harming the beneficial ones. Are todays insecticides safer to honeybees than those used 30 years ago? YES! Are they a factor in what is defined as CCD? Or any bee losses for that matter? I don't think anyone knows the answer to that one for sure. I do know, however, that many beekeepers have been able to keep strong thriving hives in areas where these newer chemicals are widely used while other beekeepers have struggled. So the answer is complicated. Beware of those who try to make the answer too simple.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  6. #46
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    Jul 2008
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    Aberdeen, Idaho
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    354

    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    I do not believe that neonics are the sole cause of our bee problems. There are some who do, and cite the evidence. There are a lot of lab tests that support the neonic/CCd connection, but real life studies that I have looked at do not. The biggest reason that I do not want neonics banned is my real life experiences with the pesticide that neonics replaced. I have walked fields sprayed with organophosphates, and found everything dead. Not a living vertebrate or invertebrate, nothing. These chemicals were frequently applied with airplanes and often ended up where they were not intended. Even if neonics are the problems some claim, they are many times better for the environment than the organophosphates. If the neonics are banned agriculture will have to go back to the old chemicals. The claim that we do not need the chemicals is made by people who know nothing about agriculture.
    Dave

  7. #47
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    Jul 2008
    Location
    Philadelphia, MS, USA
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    There have been several thoughtful answers given here and I would like to go at it from a different perspective. I have bees in Central MS because that is where I live. It is mostly pasture land and timber. Very little agrochemical exposure thankfully. Within 2 hours drive I can be in the MS Delta or the Black belt of the Tombigbee river where rowcrops are king and pesticide exposure is common. I have thought about moving my bees there in July and August for the soybean flow but have decides not to expose my bees. Howerver many do move there and ride that risk vs reward train.

    If you decide to move your bees onto someone elses property to profit from the risk they are taking by planting a crop and then try to tell them they cannot protect their investment in that crop by using the best pest management tools that is very hipocritical.

    In MS there is a group currently working together to try and address some of these issues. We have come up with a draft proposal to help increase dialoge between beekeepers, farmers and applicators that will hopefully decrease problems in the future.

    Johnny
    "Suppose you were an idiot and suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." - Mark Twain

  8. #48
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Broke-T View Post
    In MS there is a group currently working together to try and address some of these issues. We have come up with a draft proposal to help increase dialoge between beekeepers, farmers and applicators that will hopefully decrease problems in the future.
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Broke-T:

    I wish the group success. I hope that they bring this kind of information along with them to show how both beekeeper and soybean grower can benefit: http://cornandsoybeandigest.com/soyb...soybean-yields

  10. #50
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    Apr 2013
    Location
    High Springs, FL
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    35

    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    There are many articles pointing to ridiculous cross pollination between the EPA and big ag.

    Here's one, there are quite a few available online
    http://www.prwatch.org/spin/2011/01/...assive-bee-die

    it's really not new news
    http://www.iatp.org/news/bayer-monsa...-access-to-epa

  11. #51
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Collinsville, VA
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    417

    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    It's been said here that beekeeping is mainly local. No matter the advice you get you need to consider it within your geography. I see this issue as the same way as most on here formed their opinion on this issue from personal experience. When I first started beekeeping five years ago I had two hives abscond, one after the other. I swore that it was evidence of CCD. Why else would they leave brood and food behind? Now I believe the problem was a major varroa infestation. I have fixed that and I don't lose bees this way anymore. When I give talks or presentations I attribute nearly all of the CCD issue to varroa and the viruses they inject into the honeybees.

    A few months ago I had an opportunity to sit beside a Market Manager with Syngenta on a two hour flight. When I told her I was a beekeeper she got a "deer in the headlights" look that I'll never forget but we had a good conversation and I learned a lot about the other side from her. In Europe the environmental activist are pushing the ban on neonics and not beekeepers. The governmental authorities gave into the general public outcry (stirred by the environmentalist) rather than look at studies or hard evidence. Further, in Europe the ferver is to the point where the executives of Syngenta are receiving death threats for continuing to keep neonics on the market.

    We don't get a lot right over here but on this issue I'm proud the US has taken a more deliberate and rational approach.

  12. #52
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    I'm proud that these beekeepers are standing up to the EPA along with their council, "...The Pollinator Stewardship Council (formerly, the National Pollinator Defense Fund), National Honey Bee Advisory Board, American Honey Producers Association, the American Beekeeping Federation, and beekeepers Bret Adee, Jeff Anderson and Thomas R. Smith are being represented in this case by the public interest law organization Earthjustice...."

    So, U.S. beekeepers have filed an action against the EPA with the biggest environmental lawyers around.

    I think that some of you are living in a dream world.

  13. #53
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hokie Bee Daddy View Post
    We don't get a lot right over here but on this issue I'm proud the US has taken a more deliberate and rational approach.
    +1

    i'm all for effective labeling protections. my hope is that politics don't end up trumping that rational approach here like it did in europe. from what i can see so far, the beekeeping community here (for the most part) is not allowing the fear of a 'bee apocalypse' drive the spin of radical environmentalism.
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  14. #54
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    Mar 2011
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    Collinsville, VA
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Now there's a surprise - lawyers jump into a high profile, big $ case.

  15. #55
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    May 2009
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    Flora,IL
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    2,649

    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by mdax View Post
    There are many articles pointing to ridiculous cross pollination between the EPA and big ag.

    Here's one, there are quite a few available online
    http://www.prwatch.org/spin/2011/01/...assive-bee-die

    it's really not new news
    http://www.iatp.org/news/bayer-monsa...-access-to-epa

    Totally ridiculous, false and misleading propaganda.

    "big ag" feeds your butt.... without "big ag" you would have to fend for yourself. AND the EPA is the biggest pain in the backside to every company in the USA the extortion money and garbage they pull is ridiculous.

    For some goofy do good-er to assert that its a cozy relationship is the dumbest thing I have seen in a cpl months.

    Bret Adee again? Really... I think its time for some of us to file suit against HIM. he claims to represtent our interest, and not even close... Teachers won against the union... I think for the 150.00 filing fee here in IL, it would be money well spent to sue them.

  16. #56
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Don't forget these folks: National Honey Bee Advisory Board, American Honey Producers Association, the American Beekeeping Federation.

    They've filed an action against a neonic as well.

    Your own national organizations are suing the EPA.

    So, who's interests do you represent here? Auld lang syne?

  17. #57
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    A slightly different tack.

    Can I ask the people who want to ban neonicitiniods what you propose as an alternative?

    Let's hear a positive solution. If you have one......
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  18. #58
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    A slightly different tack.
    Can I ask the people who want to ban neonicitiniods what you propose as an alternative?
    Let's hear a positive solution. If you have one......
    We do have an obligation to eliminate products that are acting as environmental contaminants.

    The, 'solution' as you put it is the EPA's problem. Beekeepers are suing them to change their pesticide approval process to better protect both native and managed pollinators.

    In short, "It's not my job, man".

  19. #59
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    A slightly different tack.

    Can I ask the people who want to ban neonicitiniods what you propose as an alternative?

    Let's hear a positive solution. If you have one......


    a question i have asked for many times and have yet to get a response.

    my biggest concern is that our system of government as wonderful as it is, is not infallible. common sense and rationality do not always prevail when issues get politicized. a people divided against themselves are weakened and have difficulty moving forward. the current healthcare debacle here in the u.s. is a prime example. this is what i meant in my earlier post regarding 'capable legislators'. elections have consequences.

    like many big issues of our time, the 'plight' of the bees has been sensationalized by the (for the most part) liberal leaning media that is sympathetic to radical environmentalist causes.

    as with other issues, i don't see this as an either/or proposition. within the hype there are legitimate concerns and it would be foolish to discount them across the board. on the other hand what makes more sense is a both/and approach in which the competing interests of all parties are balanced. not an easy thing to do because of the complexity of it, but even harder to do when battle lines get drawn in the sand.
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  20. #60
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    Default Re: Why knowingly catalyze a bee apocalypse?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    In short, "It's not my job, man".
    "but hey man, make sure the shelves at the grocery store are stocked."
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

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