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  1. #81
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    May 2009
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    Flora,IL
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    2,644

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    I would bet your move/ mite change has to domore with the fact new brood is at a low, and the older bees have already died. Do a mite check and report back, other than that its just a observation that has no value. If moving bees reduced Mites some guys with migratory units would be mite free.

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    SOMERSET, ENGLAND
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    354

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Message Received: Confine your drones if you treat.
    No need to confine your drones if you treat, they are unlikely to mate with the feral survivor virgin queens, apparently there is an invisible barrier.

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Duval County, FL USA
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    47

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Thank you, I am finding that a lot of what I do "has no value". That said, I will do a check, I'm curious what the drop will be.

  4. #84
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    6,128

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    We are so privileged to have REAL scientists among us, I just love it when they step in. Some of these posts are like an beautiful thing, in a bland landscape, reading them is good for me in more ways than just learning stuff only.

    And Michabees, what a fascinating post! Wow that was interesting I would so much love to see what you do, and your Curandero Cristiano, what an amazing treasure you have there I hope he will continue to live long.

    A trip for me, to the US and Mexico is not something I will do in the foreseeable future but if I ever do this, your post has made sure I would have to come and see what you do.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  5. #85

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    Here is some more fuel for the Christmas yule log fire:
    And then one must relegate Randy O’s words when compared with those who claim that the feral populations didn’t collapse. That their nests were all natural sized cells which conveyed immunity to varroa infestations. In fact…the idea that mite resistant genetics aren’t even of consequence.

    Who to believe? .
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  6. #86

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    We are so privileged to have REAL scientists among us, I just love it when they step in.
    It does move the entire dialog to a higher level....at least until some of us post again. I'm sure I'll find that lump of coal under the tree tomorrow morning.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  7. #87
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Anthony, New Mexico USA
    Posts
    422

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    We are so privileged to have REAL scientists among us, I just love it when they step in. Some of these posts are like an beautiful thing, in a bland landscape, reading them is good for me in more ways than just learning stuff only.

    And Michabees, what a fascinating post! Wow that was interesting I would so much love to see what you do, and your Curandero Cristiano, what an amazing treasure you have there I hope he will continue to live long.

    A trip for me, to the US and Mexico is not something I will do in the foreseeable future but if I ever do this, your post has made sure I would have to come and see what you do.
    Viejillo, It would be a pleasure to take you to see the places we work at. We travel between two countries and 3 states every week -or almost every week. We own bees in Mexico and New Mexico USA, plus, we travel a lot for orphanage work and charity stuff. We do provide all of our own expenses and you would be welcomed at any time if you wish to visit.
    A few years ago, I had a chance to visit southern Mexico, and got to see the sting-less bees and africanized apiaries at the purest of forms. They still work the sting-less bees in logs, just like centuries ago. That is interesting and mostly unknown. I will post pictures, different kinds of sting-less and beautiful stories about the interaction between man and bees before the Spanish conquistadors started the destruction of the per-hispanic culture.

  8. #88
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    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    1,256

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    I tell myself, repeatedly, not to get involved in these threads...
    As the rare, resistant genotype of the Red Queen line becomes dominant --- the parasite will shift genotype to match -- and the level of parasite induced death will return to the initial level. .
    Clearly, this is exactly what happened with Apis Cerana.

    Right?
    Ray--1 year, 7 hives, TF

  9. #89
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    i firmly believe it's more about the viruses than the mites and reistance via natural immunity (if you can get it) trumps knocking the infestation rate back. but when natural immunity is insufficient, reducing the virus titer via mite removal give the bees an fighting chance.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Morro Bay, California, USA
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    989

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    A note on Creosote (Larrea tridentata)

    This plant is a geologically recent arrival from Patagonia. It is hypothesized that it was introduced by migrating birds into the Chihuahua Desert on a single ocassion about 500,000 years ago. The Sonora plants are 4n polyploid, Patagonian and Chihuahua plants are 2n, and Mojave plants (the marginal extreme) are 6n polyploid. Viz: http://www.ramseylab.org/Ramsey/Publ...0al%202012.pdf

    In some ways, Creosote is like Varroa, a recent arrival into a naive and non-resistant ecosystem. It is now the predominant plant across vast stretches of North American desert -- aided in expansion by its virtual lack of predators.

    Creosote epitomizes the glacially slow response of naive and non-resistant ecosystems to new invaders in the course of evolution. Perhaps in 500,000 years honeybees will find a modus operandi with Varroa, perhaps not.

  11. #91
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    interesting analogy jwc. the same case might be made for homo sapian.

    a better analogy would be another parasite/host out of equilibrium, the outcome of which could play out at least four ways:

    1. parasite extincts host but carries on by moving to new host(s)
    2. parasite extincts host and becomes also extinct
    3. host defeats parasite loosing the metabolic cost of dealing with it and gains ecologically
    4. host and parasite achieve equilibrium and life goes on for both, but at a cost to the host

    are there other examples past or present in which host/parasite equilibrium is in flux as it is with or bees?

    apis and varroa have achieved number 4. in the eastern hemisphere. there are some observations that support it is happening here as well. it's the timeline that inconvenient. are we helping or hurting are bees by intervening? i'd say both.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  12. #92
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    Morro Bay, California, USA
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    989

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Clearly, this is exactly what happened with Apis Cerana.

    Right?
    Couple of points
    "Asian bee colonies have been reported to produce 6 to 10 swarms in a year, compared to honey bees with an average less than one swarm per year." Cite: http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/ass...Asian-bees.pdf

    This supports the "Red Queen" hypothesis -- increasing fecundity is the primary parasite response, just like we are observing in the competitive replacement of AFB over European races.

    In fact, I think the storied resistance of A. cerana may partially be the same mechanism of the noted "first-year" halcyon experience of novice beekeepers who trumpet success on forums. Certainly the smaller size of worker bees may also show some effect.

    Exceptionally high swarm rates implies exceptionally high colony death (or otherwise the world would be awash in nothing but bee colonies). A. cerana may be dieing from pathogens just like A. mellifera.

    A. cerana has become cross infected with North American strains of DWV (and other lethal virii) cite:http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0047955

    In China, introduction of A. mellifera has led to extreme losses in A. cerana. Colony decline goes both ways, and virus and foulbrood introduced through failed quarantine (and epizooitic on varroa infection) are implicated.

    A. cerana is a derived species from near the hypothesized point of origin for the genus Apis (and the center of diversity for the Varroa genus). The length of time required for evolutionary cross-tolerance in A. cerana is measured in tens of millions of years and involves two speciation events. A. cerana is invasive (with globalization) into New Guinea (and hence northern Australia). In New Guinea (where it is a recent invader) it has become cross-infected with Varroa jacobsonii

    If you have tens-of-millions of years to wait, you likely can adopt the lovey-dovey "peaceable kingdom" model. The evolutionarily demonstrated adaptation is extreme swarming and lack of honey reserves. Your peculiar future ancestors won't be keeping honeybees but some other quite distinct insect.
    Last edited by JWChesnut; 12-24-2013 at 03:31 PM.

  13. #93
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    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    1,256

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    Rhaldridge, that post you made in another thread, can you clarify exactly what you meant? The way you worded it plainly translated to, if you can't keep treatment free bees then you are a ppb..
    I just don't understand this translation. Why would anyone treat if they could figure out how to have the same results and not spend the money and time and suffer the possible side effects of treating? I assume that most folks would choose to not treat if they could keep their bees alive and productive without treatment. But I see it argued constantly in these forums that it isn't possible. Doesn't that translate to "I can't figure out how to keep bees alive and productive without treatments?" And as an addendum, "Neither can you, you fool." Those who can't do it insist that those who can keep bees without treatment have either been wildly lucky or deeply deceptive. That seems a bit more insulting, wouldn't you say?

    I think those who perceived my admittedly unadorned statement of fact to be insulting maybe ought to think about why they found it insulting. I certainly didn't mean it as an insult. I meant to boil down the rhetoric to its essence.

    Now, I've felt insulted when treatment free beekeepers are characterized as unscientific, naive, hipsters, True Believers, followers of fads, liars, and frauds. I may be annoyed, but I don't take these criticisms seriously because those are all ad hominems that say more about those who post them than they say about the management practices that I like. There is no ad hominem in the statement I made:

    I've always assumed that the reason people treat is that they can't figure out how to keep their bees alive and productive unless they do.

    Is that wrong?
    All that said, I've been thinking about my statement, and I have to admit that it was overly simplistic. I suspect that many who treat do so because they've been convinced that it's the only way to keep bees alive, and not because they have tried and failed to keep bees alive without treatment. I suppose my remark was mostly directed to those who have tried to keep bees without treatment, have failed, and have as a consequence (it would seem) become the loudest and most intemperate critics of treatment free beekeeping here on Beesource.

    So it goes. I honestly didn't mean to insult anyone. As a beginner, it's a given that I'm a PPB. But I hope to be one of those who figures it out. Someday.
    Ray--1 year, 7 hives, TF

  14. #94
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    This supports the "Red Queen" hypothesis -- increasing fecundity is the primary parasite response, just like we are observing in the competitive replacement of AFB over European races.
    i have witnessed such hyperfecundity in some hybrid evergreens that i planted on the farm.

    i made a dense hedge by planting a row of 'carolina sapphires'. a few of them started looking sickly in their second year and became completely covered up with seed cones, whereas the healthier cohorts don't make much seed.

    i guess this is nature's way, try to win the numbers game and stack the deck for beneficial mutations.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  15. #95
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    28,276

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    I didn't see any place where Randy Oliver advocated confining bees. And I didn't see Randy advocating NO treatment either. Indeed, Randy has multiple pages on how to do treatments properly.

    But clearly, at least Randy can recognize that in spite of treating, treating contributes to .....
    (well - read it for yourself in post #76)
    "Every time you allow drones or swarms to issue from a colony that owes its survival to a miticide application, you're hindering the natural process of evolution towards mite resistant bees."

    How do you not "hinder the natural process of evolution ..." unless you don't allow drones to issue from your treated hives, ie confine them, or swarms to issue from your treated hives, or stop treating?

    Maybe I am not sharp enough to understand what he really meant.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  16. #96
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Quote Originally Posted by beekuk View Post
    No need to confine your drones if you treat, they are unlikely to mate with the feral survivor virgin queens, apparently there is an invisible barrier.
    Invisible? No wonder I missed it.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  17. #97
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Clearly, this is exactly what happened with Apis Cerana.

    Right?
    Varroa feed primarily on Apis cerana drone brood and not the workers. From what I recall reading somewhere. When they were introduced to Apis mellifera the mechanism which kept them from Apis cerana worker brood and adults wasn't present in the Apis mellifera colonies.

    Then there are the viruses we have here. I don't know if they exist in Southeast Asia. Maybe someone else does.
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  18. #98
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    Couple of points
    "Asian bee colonies have been reported to produce 6 to 10 swarms in a year, compared to honey bees with an average less than one swarm per year." Cite: http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/ass...Asian-bees.pdf

    This supports the "Red Queen" hypothesis -- increasing fecundity is the primary parasite response, just like we are observing in the competitive replacement of AFB over European races.

    In fact, I think the storied resistance of A. cerana may partially be the same mechanism of the noted "first-year" halcyon experience of novice beekeepers who trumpet success on forums. Certainly the smaller size of worker bees may also show some effect.

    Exceptionally high swarm rates implies exceptionally high colony death (or otherwise the world would be awash in nothing but bee colonies). A. cerana may be dieing from pathogens just like A. mellifera.

    A. cerana has become cross infected with North American strains of DWV (and other lethal virii) cite:http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0047955

    In China, introduction of A. mellifera has led to extreme losses in A. cerana. Colony decline goes both ways, and virus and foulbrood introduced through failed quarantine (and epizooitic on varroa infection) are implicated.

    A. cerana is a derived species from near the hypothesized point of origin for the genus Apis (and the center of diversity for the Varroa genus). The length of time required for evolutionary cross-tolerance in A. cerana is measured in tens of millions of years and involves two speciation events. A. cerana is invasive (with globalization) into New Guinea (and hence northern Australia). In New Guinea (where it is a recent invader) it has become cross-infected with Varroa jacobsonii

    If you have tens-of-millions of years to wait, you likely can adopt the lovey-dovey "peaceable kingdom" model. The evolutionarily demonstrated adaptation is extreme swarming and lack of honey reserves. Your peculiar future ancestors won't be keeping honeybees but some other quite distinct insect.
    What about Apis dorsata? They exist in the same geographic area as Apis cerana, don't they? Do they co-exist w/ varroa too?
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



  19. #99
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    Oct 2013
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    Duval County, FL USA
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    47

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    ppb?

  20. #100
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    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Piss Poor Beekeeping
    Mark Berninghausen
    The answers are the end. The questions are the journey. Journey on.



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