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  1. #141
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,999

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    In fact there are many, probably the majority, who take the view they will treat on occasion if need be rather than let a hive die, cos to them the sensible course would be requeen it, which achieves the same aim of improvement, without losing the bees.

    The most extremist, in terms of one way or the highway type philosophies, are mostly new beekeepers who have not been in it long enough to learn the several different sides to a story. Of those, for some their extremist one way views work out and they stick to them, some spending their spare time taking pot shots at everybody else, but the majority being grateful for their good fortune and being gracious and helpful to everybody else. For others it does not work out, and they either modify their views to some extent so as to keep their bees, or find themselves not in the hobby any more.

    And of that group who do modify their views, based on what I read on Beesource, many of them have total non treatment as their end goal, and many of them end up achieving it. They are not usually bashing everyone else over the head about it though.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #142

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    There are the I’ll believe it when I see it folks on one side of the spectrum….
    Then there are the You’ll see it when you believe it on the other.
    Most of the rest of us fall somewhere along the continuum between the two.
    I don’t think any amount of argument will ever change anybody’s position on that line.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  3. #143
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    27,196

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Show me.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  4. #144
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,203

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    >If you have tens-of-millions of years to wait, you likely can adopt the lovey-dovey "peaceable kingdom" model. The evolutionarily demonstrated adaptation is extreme swarming and lack of honey reserves. Your peculiar future ancestors won't be keeping honeybees but some other quite distinct insect.

    But I didn't wait tens-of-millions of years nor do I have bees "quite distinct" from the insects I was keeping 20 years ago. I don't understand why people keep talking as if many of us are not already keeping bees without problems from Varroa. Someone on a panel at the Ohio state meeting said something to the effect that if we all quit treating honey bees might become extinct and Dan O'Hanlon sid something to the effect of "but I haven't treated my bees in many years and they are not dead, and Michael here hasn't treated his in years and they are not dead" yet somehow people seem to want to ignore that.

    My bees are not any more swarmy than the bees I've been keeping these last 40 years.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  5. #145
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Pleasant Shade, TN
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    445

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    I'm a new beekeeper, thus I am in a unique position to begin a management technique without losing my whole operation that I've spent twenty years of my life building up. I do not and will never claim to know a lot about bees (a lot is a relative term anyhow). I learn something from them every day I observe them, and what I read on these threads I am soaking up like a sponge. I do not doubt the treatment free claims one bit. For one, I have never met these folks, so I certainly won't call them liars. I believe some of them, certainly the more prominent members of the "treatment free crowd", are on to something. I would LOVE to learn more from them in person. I would also like to see the contrast in a large operation that operates on what some call the "other side of the fence" that way I can have a balanced picture of what's really occurring in the world of beekeeping. I'm not picking sides here, I just want to see both sides of the story without biases. With that being said, I am open to any invitation to help folks in their bee yards for a few weekends (maybe even during the week depending on work schedule). I am being as sincere as I can be here. I'll bring my camping gear so you don't have to worry about accommodations. It would be beneficial for me to get a network going at the very least. I do not expect an answer to this on this thread. Feel free to PM me though. Seriously.
    By the way, this is an opportunity at free help.
    A man is worth just as much as the things about which he busies himself- Marcus Aurelius

  6. #146
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    Flora,IL
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    2,644

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >
    But I didn't wait tens-of-millions of years nor do I have bees "quite distinct" from the insects I was keeping 20 years ago. I don't understand why people keep talking as if many of us are not already keeping bees without problems from Varroa. Someone on a panel at the Ohio state meeting said something to the effect that if we all quit treating honey bees might become extinct and Dan O'Hanlon sid something to the effect of "but I haven't treated my bees in many years and they are not dead, and Michael here hasn't treated his in years and they are not dead" yet somehow people seem to want to ignore that.

    Tis true, but unless those skills are transferable on a larger scale they are not helpful to the population at large, and so far no one has shown transferable skills of any sizeable numbers. Could be location, or a number of other things The reasons I do not know. but the reality is painfully obvious.

    Which gets us to the root of the problem.

  7. #147
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    27,196

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Over the many discussions and arguments that have occurred and will continue to occur on this topic what I take away is that keeping bees w/out treatments is possible. That in itself is inspiring. It says that it can be done. If treatment free beekeeping is your goal then get to it. Figure it out. Follow the models that are out there. Adapt them to your own needs and abilities. It won't be easy. I haven't done it. Keep exploring the possibilities.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  8. #148
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Stillwell, KS
    Posts
    646

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Regarding waiting millions of years for bees to adapt I'm very glad the feral bees in my area are not aware it will take that long and are thriving.

    Don


    P.S. Been busy last 6 months and have not had time to post or lurk much, good to see I have not missed anything!


    4y, 40H, TF

  9. #149

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    Tis true, but unless those skills are transferable on a larger scale they are not helpful to the population at large, and so far no one has shown transferable skills of any sizeable numbers. Could be location, or a number of other things The reasons I do not know. but the reality is painfully obvious.

    Which gets us to the root of the problem.
    Harry Laidlaw Jr and Robert Page Jr. write in the book "Queen rearing and bee breeding" p.199 ISBN 1-878075-08-X
    " Institutional breeding programs at state supported universities, and the United States Department of
    Agriculture, have never succeeded due, at least in part, to the failure of the bee industry to adopt the stocks they produced. If the
    beekeeping industry is not willing to pay higher prices for selected stocks and/or is not willing to support and accept stocks produced
    by institutional stock improvement programs, then the only alternative for the future is the continued use of dangerous and
    expensive chemicals."
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

  10. #150
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    27,196

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Almost 30 years ago Steve Taber told us that us that were we to forego treatments it would take bees to naturally adapt to varroa. So maybe that is what we are seeing. A prediction come true.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  11. #151
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    Harry Laidlaw Jr and Robert Page Jr. write in the book "Queen rearing and bee breeding" p.199 ISBN 1-878075-08-X
    " Institutional breeding programs at state supported universities, and the United States Department of
    Agriculture, have never succeeded due, at least in part, to the failure of the bee industry to adopt the stocks they produced. If the
    beekeeping industry is not willing to pay higher prices for selected stocks and/or is not willing to support and accept stocks produced
    by institutional stock improvement programs, then the only alternative for the future is the continued use of dangerous and
    expensive chemicals."
    When was that written?
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  12. #152

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    When was that written?
    1997
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

  13. #153
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    May 2009
    Location
    Flora,IL
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    2,644

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Its not correct, that statement misses the point. solutions that are not economically viable are not solutions. State solutions have not succeeded because they are clueless. I have bought 200.00 VHS queens, i have tried the small cell, Played the game... and so far no formula for success around mites. I am NOT giving up. its a great economic goal. but reaility is the man who figures it out will be rich or famous.

  14. #154
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,256

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    I I am NOT giving up. its a great economic goal. but reaility is the man who figures it out will be rich or famous.
    I like that you said "rich or famous." The guys who have figured it out are famous enough that I know some of their names, but as far as I've heard, none of them are driving Bentleys.

    Folks are probably right that all the hollering and arm-waving we do here isn't going to convince anyone who already has an opinion. But I'll still do it, for several reasons. The least flattering one is that I'm an argumentative person, and for that I apologize. Second, there are many more lurkers here than posters, so it seems worthwhile to defend my speculations (yes I understand that they are speculations, but at this stage, what else can I do but study and speculate?) Finally, and most important, it lets me test my notions against the collective experience and wisdom of the others here. If those ideas can't stand up to criticism, I'd better come up with better ideas.
    Ray--1 year, 7 hives, TF

  15. #155

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    Its not correct, that statement misses the point. solutions that are not economically viable are not solutions. State solutions have not succeeded because they are clueless. I have bought 200.00 VHS queens, i have tried the small cell, Played the game... and so far no formula for success around mites. I am NOT giving up. its a great economic goal. but reaility is the man who figures it out will be rich or famous.
    VSH queens are becoming part of commercial breeding programs in Europe:
    http://perso.fundp.ac.be/~jvandyck/h...d_PJ_2013.html
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

  16. #156

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    If one wants to see what a century of pure tf beekeeping produces genetically…one need only look at the Primorsky bees. I’ve asked before….why aren’t these taking a higher profile than they seem to be?
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  17. #157

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    If one wants to see what a century of pure tf beekeeping produces genetically…one need only look at the Primorsky bees. I’ve asked before….why aren’t these taking a higher profile than they seem to be?
    I have wondered it, too. When the first Primorski queens landed in Europe in (about) year 2000, there was a huge hype and almost all breeders started working with them (in Buckfast breeders association of Europe). Now there are only couple having Primorski lines in their programs (Jungels, Koller, myself...) Maybe they thought getting something more ready... it took years to make something of that what we got. Over 10 years of matings in isolation apiaries, lot of work with uncertain results...and now we have something, ready to be mixed with VSH material. Thanks USA!
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

  18. #158
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,999

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    That's something you have in US that we don't in my country, primorsky bees. The few posts of Chris Baldwin I was able to read he said he switched to primorsky but soon found their disadvantages, and for one reason, or another, left the primorsky breeders group.

    But prior to getting primorsky he was able to get a few of his hives to withstand mites, but not prosper. Primorsky moved that up a level and increase mite resistance. But with the bee mix he ended up with, he abandoned primorsky as a breed, but just selected the best bees regardless of breed, and has been able to arrive at a treatment free status for his operation. But he says his bees are not primorsky but include some of their genetics.

    It would be great if he could post some more.

    By the way Ray you didn't answer my post, so I searched the word Liar that you said Chris had been called, nobody said it to Chris so I suspect your Liar claims were untrue. Probably just part of your self confessed argumentativeness and perhaps embellishment. So luckily that is not something that needs to be addressed with Chris but not sure how to get him back here posting though. He did kind of excuse himself by saying he is a very busy guy so maybe he's just not the chat site type.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  19. #159
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,203

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    >If one wants to see what a century of pure tf beekeeping produces genetically…one need only look at the Primorsky bees.

    There were not really being kept domestically in Russia so it shouldn't be surprising that they lack the traits that beekeepers want. It's easy enough to select for traits you want, but my problem with the Primorsky bees is they don't have any particular traits I really want... they still die from Varroa on large cell foundation just like the rest...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  20. #160

    Default Re: The Scourge of Varroa?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >If one wants to see what a century of pure tf beekeeping produces genetically…one need only look at the Primorsky bees.

    There were not really being kept domestically in Russia so it shouldn't be surprising that they lack the traits that beekeepers want. It's easy enough to select for traits you want, but my problem with the Primorsky bees is they don't have any particular traits I really want... they still die from Varroa on large cell foundation just like the rest...
    I must bee a good breeder, cos they survive in my hives, with normal 5,3mm cells

    Are there really any evidence of small cells having anything to do with varroa resistance?
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

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