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  1. #1

    Default Competition for breeding bees suitable for commrcial operation

    It seems to me, that there is quite a bit of controversy on this subject of tf beekeeping. Some beekeepers donīt believe at all, that commercial beekeeping without treatments is possible. Some argue that it should be. Itīs like the Human Genome -project. Very few believed 30 years ago, that it would ever be possible to accomplish. But it was. So. Lets make a competition. The goal: to make bees suitable for commercial beekeeping. As this is about the biggest forums for at least English speaking tf beekeepers in the whole world, this would be a perfect forum to start. And since it is our competition, we can make our own rules.

    What is needed? Well defined goal and method to measure the winner. We need a price for the winner, preferably something more than a piece of paper. I can donate 100$ to start. Some 10 years is needed for the breeding work and 5 years to measure the results. So we have plenty of time to figure out. Breeders can start right away. The result could be measured for instance in three or more places in the world (warm, cold and temperate regions, for instance) by selected beekeepers, who are not taking part. And some kind of average is calculated from those results. Maybe some research institutes or universities get interested too.

    If somebody has already started, it doesn't matter, because they must maintain their stock and keep going towards that kind of bees the competition rules demand. And shouldnīt the glory belong anyway to those who predicted the need for resistant bees? Consumers notice this competition and think that all beekeepers are responsible, because we want to have change to this tricky situation and vicious circle.
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Competition for breeding bees suitable for commrcial operation

    While it's not a bad idea at first glance, there's an underlying issue here.

    Many people find the whole model that commercial beekeepers use to be abhorrent.

    Very much like those huge caged chicken farms, ugh.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Competition for breeding bees suitable for commrcial operation

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Many people find the whole model that commercial beekeepers use to be abhorrent.

    Very much like those huge caged chicken farms, ugh.
    What commercial beekeeper has bees in cages?



    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Competition for breeding bees suitable for commrcial operation

    Bugs in a box. On palettes. On trucks. In holding yards. HFCS and pollen sub fed. High loses and short lived queens.

    1.5 million hives from all over the country in almonds every winter and growing.

    That's what I'm referring to.

    The model.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Competition for breeding bees suitable for commrcial operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    What commercial beekeeper has bees in cages?



    Package suppliers.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Competition for breeding bees suitable for commrcial operation

    Maybe we should reward 'organic' queen breeders and producers instead?

    At least there's a payoff in the end:

    'Organic' resistant Honeybee queens.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Competition for breeding bees suitable for commrcial operation

    The only issue I see is what is the criteria?? That is the tough thing to postulate... one mans good, is another mans poor. There are many here whos queens I would never touch.... Is it survivbility? brood size? honey production??

    So establishing what the criteria for a commercial beek to be pleased is your first task.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Competition for breeding bees suitable for commrcial operation

    I thought the USDA already did this....they're called VSH Pol-Line.



    Rusty
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper & Rusty's Bees ( LC and T)

  9. #9

    Default Re: Competition for breeding bees suitable for commrcial operation

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    The only issue I see is what is the criteria?? That is the tough thing to postulate... one mans good, is another mans poor. There are many here whos queens I would never touch.... Is it survivbility? brood size? honey production??

    So establishing what the criteria for a commercial beek to be pleased is your first task.
    Jep, it is difficult. But of course there might be several classes, one for honey produces, one for package producing beekeepers... but this makes it much bigger.
    What I was thinking is something of a waking up thing for beekeepers and for the public. We know that there is no such thing as the best honeybee for everybody.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Competition for breeding bees suitable for commrcial operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusty Hills Farm View Post
    I thought the USDA already did this....they're called VSH Pol-Line.



    Rusty
    Here is something about the Pol-Line. I knew nothing about them. Are they widely used?
    http://vshbreeders.org/forum/showthread.php?tid=125
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Competition for breeding bees suitable for commrcial operation

    For additional information you could look at the old Glenn site:

    http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/hygien...er_queens.html

    I'm not commercial, so I have no idea how many use them, but I have tried to add these genetics to my own bees.

    HTH

    Rusty
    Rusty Hills Farm -- home of AQHA A Rusty Zipper & Rusty's Bees ( LC and T)

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Competition for breeding bees suitable for commrcial operation

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Bugs in a box. On palettes. On trucks. In holding yards. HFCS and pollen sub fed. High loses and short lived queens.

    1.5 million hives from all over the country in almonds every winter and growing.

    That's what I'm referring to.

    The model.
    I like that "The Model" Accurate and to the point.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Competition for breeding bees suitable for commrcial operation

    Juhani, that's a pretty difficult standard. Not only would we have problems in defining a successful bee, there's no agreement on what constitutes a commercial beekeeper.

    If you ask the guys over in the commercial forum, Tim Ives with 150 hives is not commercial. Michael Bush with 200? No.

    Another complication is trying to decide the relative importance of bee genetics and cultural practices. Those who have succeeded in having productive treatment free operations have all sorts of bees from all sorts of sources. I'm beginning to think that genetics, while part of the solution, may not be the most important factor.
    Ray--1 year, 7 hives, TF

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Competition for breeding bees suitable for commrcial operation

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Maybe we should reward 'organic' queen breeders and producers instead?

    At least there's a payoff in the end:

    'Organic' resistant Honeybee queens.
    The likelihood of that happening is about as likely as all those diamond dealers in your neighborhood selling at a loss to gain market share 100 years from now.

    How many $50 queens did you buy last year to support this effort with your own wallet?

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Competition for breeding bees suitable for commrcial operation

    Why buy $50 dollar queens when you can raise? Unless to introduce quality genetics into you current line of queens.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Competition for breeding bees suitable for commrcial operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Reynolds View Post
    Why buy $50 dollar queens when you can raise? Unless to introduce quality genetics into you current line of queens.
    Name me one full time ( no outside income) "100% organic" queen breeder who sells them for under $50!!!

    Thats what he's looking for!

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Competition for breeding bees suitable for commrcial operation

    Quote Originally Posted by Honey-4-All View Post
    Name me one full time ( no outside income) "100% organic" queen breeder who sells them for under $50!!!

    Thats what he's looking for!
    Do you mean BeeWeaver?

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Competition for breeding bees suitable for commrcial operation

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Do you mean BeeWeaver?
    No I don't. Not close enough to be rich enough to bet a lunch in Times square vs a good crab dinner on the SF wharf as to whether Weavers are "organic" or not. If I was you'd be on!!!!

    So do you want to call Laura tomorrow and confirm with her that she's willing to sit and confirm in a deposition that they only use organic sugar for feed, never use tylosin or TM and keep 100% of their bees 100% of the time in an area that is 100% certified organic........... or do you want me to? I suppose I'll have my answer by ? Lets say .... I'm thinking never!!!!!!! Doubt her lawyer husband would let it happen even if it was true!!!! If you hear otherwise send me a copy of the paperwork.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Competition for breeding bees suitable for commrcial operation

    I'm not sure why you're casting stones?

    I like a lot of things about BeeWeaver.

    Is there such a thing as an organically certified Honeybee queen?

    You could always go on their website to see what it says.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Competition for breeding bees suitable for commrcial operation

    > I'm not sure why you're casting stones?

    Perhaps Honey-4-All is responding to the subject that WLC first brought up ...
    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Maybe we should reward 'organic' queen breeders and producers instead? At least there's a payoff in the end:

    'Organic' resistant Honeybee queens.






    ... where do you get those anyway ....
    .... 'organic' .....
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

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