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  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
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    Southern Oregon
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    1,162

    Default Re: Using Honey-B-Healthy, is it still treatment free?

    Quote Originally Posted by charliesbees View Post
    IMHO if we add anything that they can't get on their own, it's not treatment free. If they can't get in in nature, we should do everything in our power not to give it to them.
    In some locations in very dry years that would include water?

    According to the forum rules HBH is considered a treatment. One would think that bees do come into contact with some various plant volatiles naturally in their foraging.
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  2. #22
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    Southern Oregon
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    Default Re: Using Honey-B-Healthy, is it still treatment free?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >Does that really count as treatment free?

    Semantics are always up to you what you mean by a term or a word but it is helpful for the same of communication to agree at least somewhat what we mean by something so we can communicate clearly.

    As already pointed out, for the purposes of this forum the definition on this forum is the scope of the topic on this forum. So it does not count as treatment free for that purpose.

    For the purposes of conversation, it is also helpful to have a definition and it seems to me that by any measurement using something that kills off all of the microbes it comes into contact with, and something you are intending to kill microbes is obviously a treatment. The fallout for killing microbes can be quite negative not only because of it's effect on obvious things like the fermentation of bee bread but also the microbes in the gut of the bee that protect it from other microbes. If an antimicrobial additive to the feed isn't treating then what would you say is treating?

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0033188
    Does HBH actually have any affect on hive microbiology at all? I have not seen any evidence of this. Maybe it is possible but I am a bit skeptical on this. It certainly will not clear up mites, EFB, or AFB.
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    45,361

    Default Re: Using Honey-B-Healthy, is it still treatment free?

    >Does HBH actually have any affect on hive microbiology at all?

    All essential oils that I have seen any research on are antimicrobial. They kills yeasts, fungus, bacteria and viruses. That includes lemongrass essential oil, peppermint esential oil etc. Basically it is the immune system of the platns they are removed from. The protection bees have for EFB and AFB is the microbes in their gut.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Bay Minette, AL. USA
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    225

    Default Re: Using Honey-B-Healthy, is it still treatment free?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >a few decided what was treatment free

    All the users on the forum were encouraged to discuss it and they came up with a general consensus. It was not a few.

    > Now my question to you is are my hives treatment free three years down the road because I used essential oils at the beginning to give them a little head start?

    Or in spite of it? What makes you think it was a head start?
    Well I am not going into the rule issue again. But in spite of my essential oils in the beginning I have had no loses of hives because of disease. Now I have lost two because of my own error. But I should know better then to say I gave them a head start because maybe my bees are just that good. When I split them I leave them alone for almost 2 months and when I get into them there always a nice new queen and great brood pattern to start. But the essential oils didnt hinder them in the beginning. They were healthy and built up quickly dispite my splitting them a month and a half after getting two five frame nucs. They built up the first year five to be exact and even gave me some honey. Now everyth8ng I have read on essential oils supports everything I experienced from healthy, calm, disease fighting help and even quick build up. The only essential oils I used was eucalyptus in the bee tea.
    Let bees be bees.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Bay Minette, AL. USA
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    225

    Default Re: Using Honey-B-Healthy, is it still treatment free?

    But Micheal the one thing I want to know would my bees be considered treatment free three years down the road dispite using essential oils at the beginning?
    Let bees be bees.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Southern Oregon
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    Default Re: Using Honey-B-Healthy, is it still treatment free?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >Does HBH actually have any affect on hive microbiology at all?

    All essential oils that I have seen any research on are antimicrobial. They kills yeasts, fungus, bacteria and viruses. That includes lemongrass essential oil, peppermint esential oil etc. Basically it is the immune system of the platns they are removed from. The protection bees have for EFB and AFB is the microbes in their gut.
    This may or may not be true depending on concentration. The dose makes the difference between poison, or medicine, or food... Concentrations are critical and can be the difference.

    Some oils, such as the beta fraction of hop oil, are only active against gram positive bacteria but not gram negative. I would suspect the inverse could be true for a different particular oil.

    I would challenge anybody to document impaired gut microbes or bee bread microbes post label dosage of HBH.
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Bay Minette, AL. USA
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    225

    Default Re: Using Honey-B-Healthy, is it still treatment free?

    Well what I an getting at do what you decide is best for your bees. If you think HBH is what you want to use to start out or bee tea with your own essential oil additive then do it. Three four years down the road its not going to make any difference if you want treatment free bees.
    Let bees be bees.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Using Honey-B-Healthy, is it still treatment free?

    Quote Originally Posted by beecrazy101 View Post
    But Micheal the one thing I want to know would my bees be considered treatment free three years down the road dispite using essential oils at the beginning?
    Well, we havent got that product in Finland, HBH or whatever, but some beekeepers in Finland use thymol as their only treatment. So essential oils are quite effective. But on the other hand if your bees have been without treatments (HBH) for three years in row, I would say that they can be considered as treatment free.

    If, for some reason, your bees have no varroa resistance, I would suspect that you will be seeing total collapse very soon. Have you done any measurements , how many mites there are? Sugar dusting (Marla Spivaks method) or sticky cardboard on the bottom?
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    45,361

    Default Re: Using Honey-B-Healthy, is it still treatment free?

    >But Micheal the one thing I want to know would my bees be considered treatment free three years down the road dispite using essential oils at the beginning?

    You can consider them whatever you like whenever you like. The definition on this forum is for the sake of defining the scope of the forum.

    >I would challenge anybody to document impaired gut microbes or bee bread microbes post label dosage of HBH.

    Feeding just sugar syrup disrupts the microbes but also all antibiotics including but not limited to Terramycin, Tylosin and Fumidil. As shown in research by Martha Gilliam and the more recent one on the gut microbes that I already linked earlier. Now you're going to add a known anti-microbial to the sugar syrup and you don't think it will affect the microbes.

    http://www.beeuntoothers.com/index.p...lliam-archives
    Last edited by Michael Bush; 12-18-2013 at 01:45 PM. Reason: typo
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Southern Oregon
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    Default Re: Using Honey-B-Healthy, is it still treatment free?

    o
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >But Micheal the one thing I want to know would my bees be considered treatment free three years down the road dispite using essential oils at the beginning?

    You can consider them whatever you like whenever you like. The definition on this forum is for the sake of defining the scope of the forum.

    >I would challenge anybody to document impaired gut microbes or bee bread microbes post label dosage of HBH.

    Feeding just sugar syrup disrupts the microbes but also all antibiotics including but not limited to Terramycin, Tylosin and Fumidil. As shown in research by Martha Gilliam and the more recent one on the gut microbes that I already linked earlier. Now you're going to add a known anti-microbial to the sugar syrup and you don't think it will affect the microbes.

    http://www.beeuntoothers.com/index.p...lliam-archives
    While it is well accepted that oils have medicinal properties, they must be delivered in the right concentrations to have any affect on microbes or mites. Even the most powerful antibiotic administered at too weak of a dose is very ineffective. Don't get me wrong gut/hive ecology has always been something very important to me and should always be considered. My hypothesis about HBH is that at label concentration it is too weak to negatively affect gut ecology. I certainly think it does not "cure" anything, nor does it claim to. Has anybody actually taken gut or bee bread cultures after its use to see if the probiotic community is actually degraded in any way? If it did, I would suspect it would result in obvious hive decline. My field observations suggest quite the opposite. I like it for calming bees when we combine or mix brood from different hives when making nucs.
    John B Jacob www.oldsolbees.com

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Gainesboro, Tennessee, USA.
    Posts
    398

    Default Re: Using Honey-B-Healthy, is it still treatment free?

    Well essential oils are a natural product. Lavender, malaluka, sage, ect.....

    I think these plant oils in proper proportions are great asset. Like anything to much can cause more harm then good.

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Washington County, Maine
    Posts
    2,676

    Default Re: Using Honey-B-Healthy, is it still treatment free?

    @beecrazy101 - If you are happy with your bees and the ways you have kept them than it seems odd to wonder if your results "count" under another's system. I am not aware of a certified treatment free program from BeeSource. There are the certified Organic and certified Naturally Grown programs nationally. If you want to claim their label than you need to meet their standards. No such requirement on BeeSource. People debating what treatment free ought to be - yup, we got that. But aside from a beekeeper thinking "yup, I keep my bees consistent with the way stipulated on the BeeSource Treatment Free forum," what does it matter? If you are content believing you have done a good job as a beekeeper, that is what matters.

    I have found Honey-B-Healthy to be an effective feeding stimulant. There is debate over the health consequences of the EOs. I have some HBH in the garage somewhere but it is getting buried as the years go by and I choose not to use it. That fact alone doesn't say anything about my beekeeping competence or lack thereof.

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