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  1. #81
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Apparently it can be done.
    Am I wrong to have the thought "Statistically insignificant"?

    I'd love to see Chris Baldwin give a presentation of his management techniques at an ABF Meeting. That would be interesting.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  2. #82
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Chris Baldwin.
    The others mentioned do not make an income that most people would find acceptable.

    But Chris Baldwin is an interesting case. Maybe he is as good as he seems, I hope so. I have tried asking him questions but perhaps he is too busy to communicate.

    If commercial TF beekeeping will one day be realistic, perhaps Chris is leading the way. I would love to know more.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
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    5,243

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    What are Kirks losses? And is his production known?
    Hard to say OT. It's been a few years since we've been in touch, but historically he has large losses every few years. Most years he has enough nucs to replace his losses, and that's the foundation of his TF apiary. His Russian hybrids are nothing soecial, as they too crash from varroa and often swarm uncontrollably. Can't speak to his recent production.

  4. #84
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Thanks Michael that would tally with my own research on him which was 40 % to 60% losses each year but that is old data.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  5. #85
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Hey Michael, got a question for you. If folks don't mind me going off topic a little.
    Do you buy queens? Thinking you might to keep genetic stock from getting too narrow.
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,197

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Don't kid yourself, I could instruct any commercial beekeeper in one sentence how to
    successfully keep TF bees commercially:

    "Strike ALL drone brood every 12-14 days"

    It is WAY more expensive doing it that way, so they do not. Simple explanation.
    If I had to cut out drone brood every 14 days, I would go stir crazy. Genetics is pretty much all it takes.
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  7. #87
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    Dec 2006
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    St. Albans, Vermont
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    5,243

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Hey Michael, got a question for you. If folks don't mind me going off topic a little.
    Do you buy queens? Thinking you might to keep genetic stock from getting too narrow.
    Occasionally.

  8. #88
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Gainesboro, Tennessee, USA.
    Posts
    398

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Well I think we are all wanting some concrete evidence. Give me a few years I will be the test. My plans are to go to 1000 colonies and keep them without treatments. Might take a few years but just keep tabs. Yes I am talking big. I am man enough to say I was wrong if I can't. We all will see.

    But for the sake of the argument say I did succeed. Do you think the majority of people who don't know me personally would believe I succeeded. Probably not. Many of you probably would not. Commercials out in California and other states or countries with more hives will more than likely say no, he is pulling something, can't be.

    We will see.

  9. #89

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Okay, just a short list of commercial treatment free guys. John Kefuss, Eric Osterlund,
    Erik Österlund is treating with Thymol, he told that in a discussion forum and has Internet pages of his treatment method

    John Kefuss had huge losses recently and is himself a bit confused, what is happening.



    Kamon: Mark me as a friend. Send me private messages or e-mail, I´ll help you in every way. I used to be commercial, now 120 hives and getting the numbers up.
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

  10. #90
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    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamon Reynolds View Post
    My plans are to go to 1000 colonies and keep them without treatments. Might take a few years but just keep tabs. Yes I am talking big. I am man enough to say I was wrong if I can't. We all will see.
    Kamon it has been tried. There are even people here on Beesource who started exactly like you, wanted to build up to commercial and be treatment free. And years later they are still stuck on a dozen or two hives, with a honey crop of a few hundred lb's. If they had treated they may have succeeded.

    Yes it's unpleasant to hear I know. But fact is, despite all the name dropping, there may not be one commercial treatment free beekeeper who is making a decent living. Anywhere.

    I'm excluding people who supplement their income by talking about bees, writing books, running seminars, selling bees or hives etc.

    And I'm not a narrow minded old bigot, well maybe I am, but I too have given treatment free beekeeping my best shot, I'm back treating again.

    Go treatment free if it's a hobby. But if you want to make a living from it you need to do what it takes to make a living.

    Having said all that, maybe one day someone will succeed, that is my hope, maybe even one day treatment free will be the norm. But for now, I see people get caught up in the hype, egged on by people who are not succeeding financially themselves, and end up with shattered dreams, and shattered bank account.

    Sorry, but I could say what you want to hear, or I could tell it like it is.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  11. #91
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    1,249

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    Am I wrong to have the thought "Statistically insignificant"?
    Well, I do think that's wrong, in a sense. New stuff is by its nature rare at first. Someone has to be the first, and the first person to embrace some new technology or some difficult-to-achieve practice may seem insignificant in terms of the great mass of those who have not yet succeeded in doing so. But that sole success is wildly significant in terms of the future.

    AS an example, consider the doctor who first decided to wash his hands between attending women in childbirth. He was statistically insignificant compared to the great mass of doctors who saw no reason to wash their hands-- after all, their hands were just going to get bloody again. But that was a wildly significant moment in medical history, and very significant to the women who would have died of puerperal fever.
    Ray--1 year, 7 hives, TF

  12. #92
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    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    4,302

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    OT:

    I think that there have been enough examples of TF beekeepers who have been successful at the few hundred hive level.

    Having seen some resistant stock for myself, and having viewed videos and read the descriptions, I'd say that what's holding these resistant stocks from being used on a much larger scale is that they're not domesticated enough to do so.

    Commercial beekeepers would find them to be unacceptable.

    That being said, there are beekeepers south of the border who do use these kinds of bees regularly.
    Last edited by WLC; 12-15-2013 at 04:45 AM.

  13. #93
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    May 2009
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    Canterbry, UK
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    1,497

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolande View Post
    In your environment, in the British Isles? I'm not too interested in what might be, if I go and live in a different environment, I need stuff that I can realistically make work, here and now.
    I'm confused. You location is given as portland, dorset, UK...? What's happening here?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolande View Post
    Same question again, where in our environment has any evidence of 'natural developing resistance' been found, who verified that resistance?
    On another thread recently we were looking at a film made by a Dr. Deborah Delaney in the US, examining the dna of US feral 'survivor' colonies. She was finding that apiary bees and feral bees (in the US) had started to separate into distinct strains, kept apart by different breeding periods. Many of the feral bees were largely Amm genetically. Its here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDQNoQfW-9w

    You could also do worse than look up Joe Waggle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolande View Post
    If I'm going to go down the treatment free road again and watch previously powerful, healthy colonies, perish (in my environment) then you bet, there does need to be some proof.
    You do what you like. If I were you planning to do that I'd be just as cautious as you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolande View Post
    Theory about how things should work because that's how it's happening elsewhere in the world is worthless to me personally. I've had a go, as we've discussed privately in the past, and got my fingers burnt.
    You and many others. Would you care to describe what you did in case anyone can spot things that might help

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolande View Post
    I've no issue with the goal but I see no value in sacrificing countless colonies, and maybe many valuable traits to an ideal for the sake of feeling good about ourselves. I get no feel good pleasure from seeing a colony die when I know that it could have been saved.
    You make your choices. If you decide you want to try I'm sure you'll figure out a way without having to watch countless colonies perish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolande View Post
    (Concerning damage done to local feral wild bees by treating) No, honestly, please don't worry about that.
    The question, the reason for the post to which you are responding, was clarification of the mechanisms by which local feral/wild bees are harmed by treating apiaries - which you had called into doubt. I went to quite a bit of trouble to explain that for you - you're welcome. And since the analogy might be found worthwhile by others I'll go ahead here.

    Into the white arctic, and its ecology of white rabbit and predatory arctic fox comes Fred the black rabbit farmer. He builds a farm, surrounds it with rabbit wire, and pretty soon he's in business. Around him the white wild rabbits and the arctic foxes who feed on them carry on as they have for millions of years.

    After a while his fencing starts to get shabby. Never mind thinks Fred, a few male white rabbits might get in and mate with my does, but I'll just cull them. That'll be cheaper than renewing the perimeter. And that's what happens.

    What also happens is that a few of Fred's black rabbits get out and mate with the local arctic rabbits. They produce black and white rabbits, who swiftly get eaten - because they lack effective camouflage. The local foxes get fat mopping up the local rabbits, then they perish for lack of food.

    Fred now no longer has to worry about at fence a all. He's happy - but only because he doesn't care about the wild animals.

    In open mating settings husbandry acts have consequences. In the case of bees, drones from treatment-dependent hives mate with feral/wild queens, tend, of course, to render the offspring treatment-dependent.

    This might not be a happy thought for treating beekeepers - but it is a fact. You might adopt the pleasing posision that there are no feral bees to be so suppressed - but that is only the case where you and others like you are treating systematically. That too is fact. You can also adopt the soothing position that it it impossible to keep bees commercially without treatments. But others are doing it. So as far as I can see you don't actually have a happy position at all. Unless, like Fred, you don't care about the effects of your actions outside your own world.

    I want to be happy with my beekeeping - and lots of others feel the same. That, to ground us back in the thread topic, is a large part of why tf for me.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  14. #94
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    May 2009
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    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post

    John Kefuss had huge losses recently and is himself a bit confused, what is happening.
    Can you tell where you heard that Juhani?

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  15. #95
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    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Commercial beekeepers would find them to be unacceptable.
    It seems to me that we are starting to define 'commercial beekeepers' in terms of those who choose to maximise gains without regard to impact outside their realms. I'm not sure all commercial beekeepers are like that.

    I suspect however that most of the larger ones are. They use methods of maximising profit by using bees as throwaway units of production. Those methods positively require all sorts of treatments - because the bees are too close, too roughly treated and so on. They will never go tf because their bottom line would suffer too much.

    They're not really 'beekeepers' in any traditional sense. They're semi-industrial agricultural pollination and nectar-harvesting units. They appear to have no regard at all for the wider impact of their operations. They're very keen to convince everyone that there is no alternative, and that their work is critical to the survival of the human race, and anyway, as pure as the driven snow.

    Its all cobblers. They're mini-corporations saying what they think will best defend their ability to carry on.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  16. #96

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Can you tell where you heard that Juhani?

    Mike (UK)
    Ari Seppälä, beekeeping advisor for the Finnish Beekeepers Association (www.hunaja.net) was attending some meeting (I can ask Ari more precisely, if you wish) he had personally heard that from Kefuss, 50% losses. As I understood from the older, some part of the operation is now in the hands of Kefuss younger. They have queen and honey production, both in Europe and in South-America. Suppose you all know him well. I´ve met him one or two times in breeders meetings in Germany.
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

  17. #97
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,302

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    I'll agree that they're using an industrial scale model.

    I'll also agree that there are other models of beekeeping that would fit in with the resistant stocks that are being described.

    However, it's the commercial's that have driven how beekeeping has evolved here in the U.S. .

    In my opinion, they've pushed the model too far past it's limits.

  18. #98
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    portland, dorset, UK
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    128

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Hold on there, this MISQUOTE

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolande View Post

    (Concerning damage done to local feral wild bees by treating) No, honestly, please don't worry about that.
    appears to have been copied from my post, that is infact NOT the case, unless you think that ADDING words is an acceptable way to present 'quotes'. Apologies for the Capitals but I'm not having this. Quote my post yes, but don't change it to validate your own presentation.

    I actually wrote:


    Quote Posted by mike bispham:

    PS If you remain unconvinced I have an analogy up my sleeve...

    Quote Posted by Rolande in direct reply:

    No, honestly, please don't worry about that.

  19. #99
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    May 2009
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    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rolande View Post
    Quote my post yes, but don't change it to validate your own presentation.
    Misquote my foot: a distraction from the content of the reply more like. I put it in brackets to show what it was about.

    Mike
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  20. #100
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    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    (I can ask Ari more precisely, if you wish)
    Yes, please. I'd like all the (hard) information you can supply.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

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