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  1. #441
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,999

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    They claim to do that, however check their web site, they also say that 3 of the lines they used to have are not sold separately now cos they merged into one.

    I had an ironic smile on my face when I read that I know the hard way how they feel!!
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #442
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    It must have been a logistical nightmare to try and maintain 3 distinct lines in isolated locations while maintaining their resistance genetics.

    I probably got a better deal than I realize when I bought their queens. I've had 5 total from them. Let's hope that these two I have now actually make it through winter.

  3. #443

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I haven't heard anyone discussing that the breeder queen and queen production operations can occur in separate locations, thereby allowing for hybridization and hybrid vigor to occur in the mating yard, while still conserving breeder queen genetics in a more isolated/controlled location.

    At least that's my take on what BeeWeaver is doing to produce/sell resistant queens.

    They would almost certainly have to keep the two operations separated, or they would indeed lose the Italian/Buckfast breeder queen lines.

    For instance Paul Jungels and Jos Guth in Luxembourg are a team like this. Jungels does the breeding (and does not sell any queens) , Annette and Jos Guth are doing the queen production.

    It is very challenging for the breeder to be also a queen producer.

    (I had a cooperation for a long time with Ari Seppälä. Ari has over 1000 hives and was doing the queen production, while I could concentrate on breeding. In sometime year 2007 we ended it up, because I had difficulties with angry bees. Later on it was found out that they were angry just because of their mite loads, not genes.)
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

  4. #444
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Juhani:

    Did you send queencells/virgins only to the producer? Or, did you send him your mated queens for additional production?

    I'm thinking about how BeeWeaver solved their 'angry bees' issues considering that at least some of their operation is in a 'hybrid swarm' zone, and they do open mate their queens.

    I've heard reports that while the F1 do get defensive in those types of circumstances, the F2 can be less defensive.

  5. #445

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Juhani:

    Did you send queencells/virgins only to the producer? Or, did you send him your mated queens for additional production?

    I'm thinking about how BeeWeaver solved their 'angry bees' issues considering that at least some of their operation is in a 'hybrid swarm' zone, and they do open mate their queens.

    I've heard reports that while the F1 do get defensive in those types of circumstances, the F2 can be less defensive.
    I gave him some breeders in spring before queen rearing started.

    A large enough producer can rely on drone dominance in their own area. They surely find some locations in their beekeeping area where the dominance is better than elsewhere. Matings need not to be 100% sure, but don´t ask how much is needed, I haven´t a clue...
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

  6. #446
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    In my opinion, it might be both faster in terms of queen production, and better in terms of keeping your own local genetics from mixing with your partner's local genetics , to send virgin queens only outside of your own area.

    It's likely better for maintaining hybrid vigor in production queens.

  7. #447
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,211

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    called such queens 'blenders'
    If I have your reference correctly, the correct translation of the word "blenders" is "blinders". Or a more correct idiomatic translation into english is "flash in the pan". In other words, a colony that produces an overwhelming good result "blinding" the observer to the reality of the genetics involved. The problem with this concept is that the exceptional colonies are often the correct route for the breeder to follow.

    I read above about maintenance of "lines". I have not yet seen a queen breeder, with one possible exception, who has the genetic background to avoid this pitfall. Summarizing, the way to avoid losing lines is to do selection from the other end of the breeding population. Instead of picking the very best colony you have to breed from, pick the very worst colonies and then eliminate the worst 20% of the total population. Done consistently over a period of 10 years, the selection pressure from removing the worst performers is equivalent to the selection advantage of the same 10 years spent breeding from the very best performers and you don't lose the breeding line in the process. Please note that this statement applies only to maintenance of a population. If you are going to do active selection to increase specific traits in a population, breed from the very best performers THAT EXHIBIT THE SPECIFIC TRAITS you are selecting for. I should also qualify this statement by saying that it applies to outbreeding populations ONLY. If you are dealing with an inbreeding population like tomato, an entirely different set of rules apply.

    A good analogy to illustrate why the above is true is an hourglass. If you select only the best performers, then the top of the hourglass gradually narrows to the center as you eliminate genetic variation. Selecting and removing the worst performers is working from the bottom half of the hourglass and allows you to avoid moving into the bottleneck in the middle.
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  8. #448
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,576

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    Instead of picking the very best colony you have to breed from, pick the very worst colonies and then eliminate the worst 20% of the total population. Done consistently over a period of 10 years, the selection pressure from removing the worst performers is equivalent to the selection advantage of the same 10 years spent breeding from the very best performers and you don't lose the breeding line in the process.
    is the reasoning behind this to eliminate the drone contribution from the worst performers?

    would you still want to rear daughters from the queens of your better performers?

    our apiaries are similar in size dar, how many different 'lines' do you try to maintain?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  9. #449
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
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    1,211

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    When you cull the bottom 20%, they are replaced with stock from better performers.

    I have 3 apiaries, one major line, and one minor. The minor line is an attempt to introduce allogrooming to the major line. I swap queens between the three apiaries to limit inbreeding effects. Two apiaries have been aggressively pushed to swarm so that feral populations in those areas are much higher and act as a buffer against mite susceptible colonies. One apiary is in an area with a commercial beekeeper who treats, therefore is not used for mating queens.

    There are two other beekeepers in this area who have my stock. One has 4 colonies, the other has 5. Both are planning on 2 for 1 splits next spring. I just sold several queen excluders and some frames to one of them yesterday. I tried to get another guy set up with tolerant stock about 7 years ago, but he insisted on requeening with commercial Italian stock. He is no longer keeping bees because of mites.
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  10. #450
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,999

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    How do you monitor for the allogrooming and how long have you had bees with that, and how much success getting it into the other line?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  11. #451
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
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    1,656

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    If I have your reference correctly, the correct translation of the word "blenders" is "blinders". Or a more correct idiomatic translation into english is "flash in the pan".
    Online Dictionary:

    1. blinders A pair of leather flaps attached to a horse's bridle to curtail side vision. Also called blinkers.
    2. Something that serves to obscure clear perception and discernment.

    Sense 2. might work

    There's also:

    'Play a blinder' (British informal): to perform with a lot of skill, especially when you are playing sport, 'He's played a blinder in every game so far this season.'

    That doesn't seem to work.

    Your 'flash in the pan' does make limited sense, and fits with sense 2. above, although as if from a different pespective.

    The source is Ruttner, Breeding Techniques and Selection for Breeding of the Honeybee, Trans. Ashleigh and Eric Milner, 1988. The term is used 3 times (from his Index) along the lines I've described. Its a queen that performs well but fails to forward her qualities. Presumably the incidence of such queens is high, sufficiently so for evaluation to rely on the properties of (well mated) offspring.

    This is no different to breeding in all areas.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    In other words, a colony that produces an overwhelming good result "blinding" the observer to the reality of the genetics involved. The problem with this concept is that the exceptional colonies are often the correct route for the breeder to follow.
    Interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    I read above about maintenance of "lines". I have not yet seen a queen breeder, with one possible exception, who has the genetic background to avoid this pitfall. Summarizing, the way to avoid losing lines is to do selection from the other end of the breeding population. Instead of picking the very best colony you have to breed from, pick the very worst colonies and then eliminate the worst 20% of the total population. Done consistently over a period of 10 years, the selection pressure from removing the worst performers is equivalent to the selection advantage of the same 10 years spent breeding from the very best performers and you don't lose the breeding line in the process.
    More interesting still. Of course in tf beekeeping this is largely what happens anyway - the lower end remove themselves - or are requeened, which is effectively the same thing.

    Would I be right in thinking that the rest entails, broadly speaking, propagating from a wide range of the better performers, rather than narrowing to the very best?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    Please note that this statement applies only to maintenance of a population. If you are going to do active selection to increase specific traits in a population, breed from the very best performers THAT EXHIBIT THE SPECIFIC TRAITS you are selecting for.
    Again, in our tf setting that will largely happen automatically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    A good analogy to illustrate why the above is true is an hourglass. If you select only the best performers, then the top of the hourglass gradually narrows to the center as you eliminate genetic variation. Selecting and removing the worst performers is working from the bottom half of the hourglass and allows you to avoid moving into the bottleneck in the middle.
    As I understand it, on the whole genetic narrowing isn't really a problem in beekeeping, except where big breeders produce thousands of sister queens.

    Are there any insights in all this into different approaches taken by a) apiaries wishing to raise resistance traits (from near zero) in their existing bees, and b) People collecting feral genetics that already possess resistance traits?

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  12. #452
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    SOMERSET, ENGLAND
    Posts
    335

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Brother Adam wasn't a scientist, and for the most part he was working before the sex life of bees was even remotely understood.
    No he was not a scientist, but was a pretty good geneticist when it came to bees, and was awarded two Honorary Doctorates, although these are not the real deal as such.

    He did pioneer the idea of isolated matings, and from the below there was reasonably good knowledge about the sex life of bees during even his early days.

    ..The first genetic mechanism for sex determination was proposed in the mid-1800s by a Silesian monk named Johann Dzierson, according to the study's co-author and Arizona State University Provost Robert E. Page Jr. Dzierson was trying to understand how males and females were produced in honey bee colonies. He knew that the difference between queen and worker bees – both females – emerged from the different quality and quantity of food. But, what about the males, he asked.

    Dzierson posited that males were haploid – possessing one set of chromosomes, which was confirmed in the 1900s with the advent of the microscope. Under the magnifying lens, researchers could see that eggs that gave rise to drones were not penetrated by sperm.
    Father Dzierzon first noted the fact of parthenogenesis in 1835.
    Last edited by beekuk; 01-03-2014 at 07:44 AM.

  13. #453
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,212

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    >Father Dzierzon first noted the fact of parthenogenesis in 1835.

    And his only degree was in theology... although he also was conferred several honorary degrees...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  14. #454
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    2,872

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Obviously breeding from hybrids is difficult which is why breeders typically select for fixed queen mother and fixed drone mothers to flood genetics with or use II to hybridize the two for evaluation, which is effectively selecting for hybrid parents to produce 'known' hybrid production daughters. Creating parent lines can get tricky with sex alleles but if I'm thinking about it correctly, you would need to introgress or integrate traits you want into two separate lines (at least) and then cross them together to fix them and select your parent lines from there. Again, this is still a little difficult as MAS or MABC is out of reach for most of us to select for true fixed lines and with few phenotypical traits to use it mostly comes down to guess work and proper evaluation of traits if you don't want to II your parent lines.

  15. #455

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Quote Originally Posted by JRG13 View Post
    Obviously breeding from hybrids is difficult which is why breeders typically select for fixed queen mother and fixed drone mothers to flood genetics with or use II to hybridize the two for evaluation, which is effectively selecting for hybrid parents to produce 'known' hybrid production daughters. Creating parent lines can get tricky with sex alleles but if I'm thinking about it correctly, you would need to introgress or integrate traits you want into two separate lines (at least) and then cross them together to fix them and select your parent lines from there. Again, this is still a little difficult as MAS or MABC is out of reach for most of us to select for true fixed lines and with few phenotypical traits to use it mostly comes down to guess work and proper evaluation of traits if you don't want to II your parent lines.
    We have to separate two type of doings in this matter. First are the hybrids made by Dadant Co (Midnite and Starline, some more?). These are the original and only hybrids by definition. The company keeps four different parent lines pure (enormously difficult task, because of the massive inbreeding) then they make first two crosses and then mate these two. Actually: Does Dadant do this any more?

    Buckfast breeding is quite different. Here the aim is to get new valuable traits into the main population. To get further in breeding, to invent something new. First the bees with the found desired qualities are crossed with the main stock. Vigorous culling is done after the initial crossing, then there is a series of back crossings and in about 10 years a new line is born. Hopefully the desired genes have remained.

    What are MAS and MABC ?
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

  16. #456
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Sacramento, CA, USA
    Posts
    2,872

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    Marker Assisted Selection and Marker Assisted Back Crossing

  17. #457

    Default Re: Why Treatment Free.

    I guess all the others are hiding the winter storm?
    Treatment free, honey production, isolation mated queens, www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.html

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