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  1. #81
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
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    Manitoba, Canada
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    473

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Even at -30 C still removing heat unless the hives are small going into winter.

  2. #82
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Hudson, WI USA
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    2,267

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    How are the air vents managed so that they still let air in and out, but not light?

  3. #83
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
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    Manitoba Canada
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    6,574

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    We install light traps

  4. #84
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Dawson Creek, BC, Canada
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    182

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Here is an interesting study from the Beaverlodge Research Station in Alberta. It's an old study regarding indoor wintering. Good info.
    http://capabees.org/content/uploads/...highlights.pdf

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Hudson, WI USA
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    2,267

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    How does a light trap allow air movement, but not admit outside light?

  6. #86
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Dawson Creek, BC, Canada
    Posts
    182

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    I only have a small wintering building (14x16) with 70 singles in it. I have installed a little PLC ( Programmable Logic Controller) to do my HVAC control. The PLC I use is made by Control by Web. It is the X310 model. It's capable of measuring upto 4 temperatures, humidity, and controlling 4 different outputs based on those temps or RH. It can keep your building within .5C of set point. I didn't splurge for the RH sensor, but now think that I should order it. ($90).

    The beauty of this controller is that it can send temp alarms via email to upto 3 email addresses, I have set it up to auto email me all temps and fan/heater statuses every 4 hours. As this is my first year in this building, using this controller, I wanted to get regular updates proving it hasn't locked up, or stopped working. So far it's been flawless.

    I can also log in over the Internet to see the status of everything, and trend temperatures or humidity.

    Pretty slick unit, so far no regrets.
    Oh and it's pretty cheep too $240.00
    Luke
    Last edited by sharpdog; 12-21-2013 at 11:04 PM.

  7. #87
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    Jan 2003
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Wow , that's the ticket !

  8. #88
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Manitoba, Canada
    Posts
    473

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Well Ian, the longer this thread you started gets the more paranoid I am getting. I think next year I will probably have real time monitoring via the internet in place. I am more concerned about the CO2 than the RH.

    Looking at the numbers Fusion dog posted for 100 g of honey/syrup per day
    “100 grams of honey when metabolized will release:

    15 grams of physically bound water (USDA nutrient database says 17 grams)
    125 grams of carbon dioxide
    51 grams of water from sugar

    To answer the not-asked part of the question, the reaction requires 91 grams of oxygen (0.480 cubic meters of air at standard conditions) “

    These are the same numbers I got from my calculations for consuming 15 L of syrup per winter, though in reality that is the amount I feed and only 10 – 12 L gets consumed. Looking at these numbers I have determined the changes in O2 and CO2 after one day with no air exchange. There are a lot of assumptions being made here like all sugars have the composition glucose, the system is closed, the consumption of O2 and release of CO2 and H20 doesn’t change the density of air and that there is a cubic meter of air per hive in the wintering room.

    Depending upon RH there are about 1250 g of air per cubic meter at 5 C. O2 composes about 21 % of this so the mass of O2 is 263 g. After 91 g of oxygen is consumed, the concentration is down to 14 %.

    A cubic meter of air contains about 0.5 g or 400 ppm of CO2. The release of 125 g of CO2 increases the concentration to 100,000 ppm.

    Building are considered unhealthy at 1,000 ppm, humans show sign of CO2 toxicity after being exposed to 50,000 for 30 min and are unconscious in a few min at 100,000 ppm. According to Randy Oliver (http://scientificbeekeeping.com/old-...o-bees-part-1/) bees tolerate 60000 ppm inside the cluster. Another interesting point is at lowered O2 levels bees enter ultra low metabolic rate where they consume less food and live longer.

    It seems to me that the current recommendations for air exchange that are often stated for indoor wintering may be higher than needed. Cutting back on air exchange in cold weather would increase the RH dramatically. Temperature might become a problem though I am comfortable with 6 to 8 C.

    Currently, my readings for RH are running between 40 % and 50 % according to my devise. Inside my house I got readings as low as 22 % before I started humidifying so it seems be relatively accurate. I have no idea about CO2 levels but I am extremely curious to see how it changes with different air exchange regimes.

  9. #89
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Manitoba, Canada
    Posts
    473

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Sharpdog that's what I am looking to do for next year as well. I want to monitor CO2 as well - especially at floor level. Great idea.

  10. #90
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Dawson Creek, BC, Canada
    Posts
    182

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Here is what the interface looks like on the x310. Sorry its so small, I can't figure out my wife's MAC.


    photo.jpg
    photo-4.jpg

    Luke

  11. #91
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
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    Manitoba, Canada
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    473

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Very nice Luke.

    Images are nice and big when I clicked on them.

  12. #92
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    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    6,574

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Same here Allen , I'm investing into a CO2 sensor as soon as I get the chance after Christmas. Everything revolves around the CO2 exchange and after reading all your chemistry there, there is no doubt in my mind that I should be more focused on achieving the proper CO2 targets rather than just running my fans to generally regulate fresh air and manage temps.
    My wintering room is set up with 10 ceiling fans so I can mix the air within the room very efficiently if needed. If I knew the CO2 levels, I would run my fans accordingly and perhaps less, which in turn would save heat loss and humidity losses.
    As the temps increase outside, my fans would ramp up to keep the shed cool and eliminating all CO2 concerns but it's this kind of cold cold cold weeks on end of terrible cold that has the fans resting in idle which creates the perfect environment for gasses to layer and provide a toxic wintering environment.

    I'm fussing over RH levels, I probably should be fussing over CO2 and CO levels instead
    Last edited by Ian; 12-21-2013 at 11:42 PM.

  13. #93
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    Jan 2003
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Oh , and thanks for all that chemistry input. You sound extremely smart saying all that stuff, so if you don't mind, I'm going to cut and paste ALL that and use it for further reference.

    This is the kind of stuff I have been searching for!

  14. #94
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    Jan 2003
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Yes, I have heard the bees go somewhat dormantish at higher concentration of CO2, consuming less food AND the person speaking about this to me also mentioned in this prolonged environment mites tend to off fall dead more than in lower CO2 levels.
    This definetly is something that would need close attention as the margin of error would be slim

  15. #95
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Bonn, Germany
    Posts
    132

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Quote Originally Posted by sharpdog View Post
    ...
    You should be able to control the main parameter (temperature, humidity, air flow rate) without electricity, internet or telemetry. This criterion definitely exists and is important.

  16. #96
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Manitoba, Canada
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    473

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Yes, I have heard the bees go somewhat dormantish at higher concentration of CO2, consuming less food AND the person speaking about this to me also mentioned in this prolonged environment mites tend to off fall dead more than in lower CO2 levels.
    This definetly is something that would need close attention as the margin of error would be slim
    Yep. I won't be the person blazing the trail here. However, it is good to know that a spike in CO2 won't harm the bees. In spring during warm weather I usually open the doors to cool things down at night and then turn the exhaust fan off during the day. I can usually keep the temperature blow 12 C this way.

  17. #97
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    Jan 2007
    Location
    Manitoba, Canada
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    473

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    This is the kind of stuff I have been searching for!
    I have learned a lot in from this thread as well. Thanks for starting it.

    BTW, If anyone else crunches the numbers and either verifies or disputes my numbers, please post this. This discussion has been very useful for those of us who winter indoors.

  18. #98
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Flora,IL
    Posts
    2,644

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    I am interested in how you sized the Refer units???

  19. #99
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    Jan 2003
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Charlie, that's next on my list

  20. #100
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    2,811

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Calcium Hydroxide(slaked Lime), was always the test for CO2 in school. You decanted(poured off the top) from a solution with lime on the bottom, and bubbled air(or gas to be tested) through the clear liquid. The CO2 forms Calcium Carbonate(Limestone) , with is milky.

    I do not know if that info is of value, but if you have time, it would be cheap to make a waterfall(think display fountain) of lime solution and add water while removing CO2.


    Crazy Roland

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