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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
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    Manitoba, Canada
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    434

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    The question to answer has less to do with humidity in the room and more to do with humidity in the cluster.
    Interesting thought. If bees can regulate the humidity within a winter cluster effectively, then only the bees that are located on the outside of the cluster would be exposed to very dry conditions and only for a little while. I am curious how much of the humidity is lost when bees need to circulate air to remove CO2. I bet it would be lot. Using just honey metabolism for humidity regulation is much different than also having access to water. I wonder if anyone has research humidity inside the winter cluster as winter clusters have been studied.

    As a side note, I did some calculations with a lot of assumptions. If hive stores 15 L of syrup and assuming simple sugar molecular composition and 2:1 syrup cured to half the water being removed from the syrup, then metabolism of the syrup would result in 8.1 L of water and an addition 3 L of water would be released from the water in the syrup. Over 160 days and 1000 hives that would be 65 L of water released per day. (According to my calculations). That is a substantial amount of water being released but as Ian's reading are showing, it is not making much of a dent in the RH. Interesting.

  2. #42
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    Flora,IL
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    2,644

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    I have never heard that before. What does the measured acoustic noise tell you?
    I think he was trying to refer to the fact that distressed bees make more noise for a variatey of reasons.

  3. #43
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    Jan 2007
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    Bonn, Germany
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    122

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    I think he was trying to refer to the fact that distressed bees make more noise for a variatey of reasons.
    I would use more than one RH meter. Secondly, I would calibrate all of them using for example salts.
    Noise analysis can help but you have to have the comparative data.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    6,110

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    The link is to a Masters thesis [University of Pretoria (South Africa)] titled "Homeostasis: Humidity and water relations in honeybee colonies (Apis Mellifera)":

    http://upetd.up.ac.za/thesis/submitt...ssertation.pdf
    A big document - 5.7 Mb. It does include study in wintering conditions, but of course wintering in South Africa may be somewhat different than wintering in Canada.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
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    Manitoba Canada
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    5,925

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    I think he was trying to refer to the fact that distressed bees make more noise for a variatey of reasons.
    Quote Originally Posted by sjj View Post
    I would use more than one RH meter. Secondly, I would calibrate all of them using for example salts.
    Noise analysis can help but you have to have the comparative data.
    ???

  6. #46
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    Jan 2003
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    65 Liters of water evaporation is a lot. Works out to about 65ml per hive. That would seem to be more than enough hydration provided daily
    Assuming Allen's calculations are accurate

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Bonn, Germany
    Posts
    122

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Quote Originally Posted by ian View Post
    ...
    What is the optimum rh in the wintering shed ...

    Thanks
    75% rh.

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
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    2,697

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    I believe sjj in speaking of salts that pull moisture from the air until they have reached an equilibrium of the water in the salt solution and the air(solid salt must be in contact with air?). Each salt is different, For example, at 5 deg C. magnesium nitrate wants 58.86 RH and Sodium Nitrate wants 78.57 RH. There are others, but I staed away from some toxic ones.

    sjj - can you site a source of you info?

    Crazy Roland

  9. #49
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    Dec 2008
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    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
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    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Adrian - just a guess, but historically did cellar wintering decline after package bees became readily available?

    Crazy Roland

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    Adrian - just a guess, but historically did cellar wintering decline after package bees became readily available?

    Crazy Roland
    It increased here when packages became less available

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    I believe sjj in speaking of salts that pull moisture from the air until they have reached an equilibrium of the water in the salt solution and the air(nd
    And why?

  12. #52
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    Jan 2007
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    Manitoba, Canada
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    434

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Great paper Graham - recent and lots of citations

    from page 8 and corroborated by several studies "suggested an optimum relative humidity in the brood nest of 40 % RH".

    grozzie2 - looks like mite research as a carrot to determine a low threshold for RH is a no go. From page 7 "The parasitic mite Varroa jacobsoni, which reproduces in the brood cells, shows lower reproductive success at higher humidity"
    Last edited by Allen Martens; 12-14-2013 at 11:47 PM.

  13. #53
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    Dec 2008
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    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
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    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Ian, if I understand how the salts work, the solution works to maintain a set RH. If the solution where on a scale, and it gained weight, your RH is too high. If the solution on the scale looses weight. the RH is too low. The solution absorbs or evaporates water to maintain the set RH.

    Crazy Roland

  14. #54
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    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Ohh, it's used to maintain the RH in the building. Quite interesting.
    Roland, your background knowledge on all these topics is quite amazing.
    What kind of apparatus would be needed to use this idea in a 27,000 cubic foot room?

  15. #55
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    Dec 2008
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    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
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    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Probably not feasible to maintain a room, but very applicable to calibrating RH meters in a small enclosure. OR, you could make your own RH meter by putting a sample of the salt solution on a small lab scale(read:cheap, down and dirty). It's change in weight would tell you if you need to add or subtract water from the air.

    I have a PDF on the subject, PM if you want it, or should we let Rader handle it?

    Crazy Roland

  16. #56
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    Jan 2003
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    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    I have a RH Meter , much simpler

  17. #57
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    Dec 2008
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    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
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    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    When was the last time it was calibrated? The salts can be used to verify calibration.

    Salt%20solutions%20FOR%20Isotherm.pdf

    I ATTEMPTED to attach a file about salts. Any images of "Business Models" are not mine.

    Crazy Roland

  18. #58
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    Jan 2003
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    The RH out side is 75%, the RH inside the shed remains at 30%. The fans have kicked in to keep the shed temperature cooled to 5 degreesC as a few Bomy days of -5 and -10's have passed by. That increased air volume is keeping the RH levels low in the shed.
    What is your shed's RH sitting at Allen ?

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
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    Manitoba, Canada
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    434

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    I haven't really been monitoring RH. My cheap RH meter quite working. Bought a new one today.

    My bigger problem yesterday was my fan quit working. Looks like the fan got blocked by some ice after the warmer day Monday. I took the fan out and started testing it today only to find that it was working perfectly. By the time I had it up and working the humidity was up to 56% and the temperature was up to 7.5C (which isn't a problem). After running the fan for an hour the humidity had dropped to 40% and the temperature was down to 4C.

    Last night and this morning I opened the 14 ft door for about 10 min. Talk about quick air exchange. The temperature was below freezing both times.

    I will update you in a couple of days about RH when everything settles back to normal.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Bonn, Germany
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    122

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Quote Originally Posted by Roland View Post
    When was the last time it was calibrated? The salts can be used to verify calibration.

    Salt%20solutions%20FOR%20Isotherm.pdf

    I ATTEMPTED to attach a file about salts. Any images of "Business Models" are not mine.

    Crazy Roland
    It is not complicated.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT5VkzWyRyM

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