Page 2 of 9 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 174
  1. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Manitoba, Canada
    Posts
    461

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Roland

    I think you proved my point. These recommendation for RH are based on "expert opinion" and the opinions may be logical and bang on but so far I haven't found empirical evidence for them. My guess that in many situation bees do well and maybe even better at lower RH.

    The line in the article following your quote says it all "although very little specific information is available on this aspect."

    I would love to know the optimal and acceptable ranges for RH based upon research.

  2. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,553

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    This appears to be the paper Roland referenced:
    http://capabees.org/content/uploads/...quirements.pdf


    Another document that discusses indoor humidity:
    "Wintering bees in Canada"
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    2,775

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Allen - I am jealous of your Beaverlodge people, They seem more practical than ours(Don't get me started). Could you approach them to do the research?

    Crazy Roland

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    2,775

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Yup, Rader, that's the one(are they both the same?)

    Roladn

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    6,452

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Roland, your feedback is very much appreciated.
    And they call you crazy, ...
    helpfull ? Yes

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    6,452

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Thanks Graham , my beesource librarian . Lol

    Humidity must not be as important factor as everyone claims it to be. I'm constantly told, watch your air flows as low humidity can dry out your shed. Yet very little actual study has been done on that. Perhaps just a "known" fact of indoor wintering

    This is just my 8th year of doing it, 5 years primarily. Not a lot of experience with it yet. Still a green horn

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Hudson, WI USA
    Posts
    2,237

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Do we know if bees are capable of regulating the humidity in the hive by fanning? We know that they fan to control the temp, but might they not also fan to move moisture? From your pics it looks like you have no entrance reducers. If there was an upper entrance and air chimneying through I could see the drying out happening, but humidity in the hive might be something they regulate themselves by not fanning as much. 900 hives in a shed is fascinating to me. Having all your eggs in one basket, I can see why you worry about the basket so much.

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    2,775

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Still have not found the article I was looking for. It's premise was that the bee's internal water level was very important. I did find and article in the ABJ, OCT 1995, Vol 135, No 10, pages 678-680. Indoor wintering in Minnesota.

    back to searching.

    Crazy Roland

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Campbell River, BC, CA
    Posts
    533

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Quote Originally Posted by Allen Martens View Post
    These recommendation for RH are based on "expert opinion" and the opinions may be logical and bang on but so far I haven't found empirical evidence for them.
    "One test result is worth one thousand expert opinions." - Wherner Von Braun

    I've got that quote printed in large bold letters, hanging on the wall. When working on client projects (my firm is in the process control engineering field), my motto is pretty simple. Show me the math with a definitive proof, or set up a test jig of some kind. Sometimes, answers are easy to find by just crunching numbers on the computers. Sometimes, it's impossible to isolate all the variables well enough to do a mathematical solution, so we build hardware.

    I would love to know the optimal and acceptable ranges for RH based upon research.
    One thing I've noticed since taking up bees a few years ago, tons of opinions out there, mostly based on 'works for me' type of information. Heck, the local journal has an 'ask the beekeeper' section, and there are 3 to 5 DIFFERENT answers to each question, all from long time beekeepers. It kind of emphasizes the point, and the adage 'ask a dozen beekeepers, get a dozen answers' I've seen so many times. We already see that in this thread, numerous different sources quoting different values for what is the proper RH for the bees wintering in the shed.

    But on the question you pose here, I start to wonder, are folks asking the wrong question ? Two data points I base this on. I read endlessly about the 'good old days pre varroa', and the attitude seems to be, prior to varroa, put bees in boxes, wait, harvest. Post varroa, it's a big change. This makes me wonder, on a question like this, regarding RH, folks are asking what is best for the bees, and that may not be the correct question. Maybe the correct question is 'What RH level is worst for the mites ?' If the mites are more sensative to humidity levels, maybe there is a tradeoff at a point that puts a mild stress on the bees, but a very large stress on the mites, which would result in a better outcome than a humidity level that's optimal for the bees, but also optimal for the mites.

    For doing raw research, this question is actually much easier to answer than the 'what is best for the bees' question. Line up 10 incubators, and place a controlled mite population in each, probably in a petri dish, along with a food source for them. Keep each one at a different humidity level, controlled, then wait and ultimately the plot one is looking for, average survival time of the mites, vs humidity in the various incubators, which are all kept at a constant temp, equivalent to the inside of a wintering hive. It's FAR easier to control the variables in this case, than trying to control the variables in a shed full of hives.

    For this particular question, I know somebody like Ian certainly cant be risking a shed full of his livelihood to do experiments along this line, but, for the experiment I just listed, the folks at beaverlodge probably have all of the equipment needed in inventory, and could produce a hard result in 2 or 3 months, if somebody just set down and did it.

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    2,775

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Found this abstract:

    Determining the amount of water condensed above and below the winter cluster of honey bees in a North - European Climate
    publication date: Apr 1, 2013
    Send a summary of this page to someone via email.
    Previous | Next

    Journal of Apicultural Research

    Vol. 52 (2) pp.81-87
    DOI



    Back to looking.....

    Crazy Roland

    10.3896/IBRA.1.52.2.17
    Date

    April 2013
    Article Title


    Determining the amount of water condensed above and below the winter cluster of honey bees in a North - European Climate
    Author(s)


    Kalle Toomemaa, Ants-Johannes Martin, Marika Mänd and Ingrid H Williams
    Abstract


    The amount of water condensed in the hives of overwintering honey bee colonies was investigated. In autumn, condensers of thin sheet metal were placed in hives above and below the frames of the winter nests of the experimental colonies. The condensed water could flow into plastic bottles for collection. Most of the water collected during the winter condensed on the lower devices, only 2.5 ± 1.31% on the upper ones. At an average food consumption of 7.17 ± 0.35 kg, the amount of water condensed was 445.27 ± 45.8 g. The total amount of water released by such food consumption would be 4.88 ± 0.24 kg. The upper condensers increased moisture and wet surfaces in the hive, whereas the lower ones did not. Test and control colonies did not differ significantly in food consumption and bee mortality. The top condenser created additional airspace above the cluster and probably metabolic water vapour released from the cluster, having risen up first started descending, but due to the longer distance to the lower condenser it cooled more and condensed on the hive walls. The results show that in hives without top ventilation, it would be appropriate to remove descended water vapour from below of the nest or to retain it in the hive for spring consumption of the bees. It enables to reduce humidity in the nest of bees without strengthened ventilation to withdraw increased heat loss and enforces the bees to rise the metabolic rate and heat production, which in turn would increase food consumption and water production.
    Keywords


    honey bee, wintering, water vapour, moisture, condensation
    Full text

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,224

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    I came here just for the purpose of posting one critical piece of information that so far is lacking in this thread. Fortunately, Roland's post above mine gives the supporting evidence. So far, the discussion has been around humidity levels in a bee wintering facilty. But there is one HUGE elephant in this outhouse. Simple sugar is composed of C6H12O6 molecules for fructose and glucose. When it is metabolized, one of the byproducts is WATER!!!!

    Think of it this way, 6 - CO2 is one carbon with two oxygen. The O2 comes from air and the C comes from the sugar molecule. That leaves H12O6 which if you think about it is 6 - H2O. Please investigate this and I think you will find that the colder it gets, the more honey consumed, and the more water they release. The bulk of the water is NOT from the moisture content of the honey. It is from the metabolized sugar!

    This does not necessarily help with determining correct humidity levels, but it will help to understand why humidity is not usually a problem in a wintering cluster. The bees are not significantly affected by external humidity, they generate all the water they need in the cluster. What is a problem and has caused numerous failures in wintering facilities is carbon dioxide buildup.
    DarJones - 45 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
    Posts
    2,775

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Fusion power - all true , but if iIunderstand Ian's concern, it is that to remove the CO2 with make up air, he is introducing very dry air when the outside temperatures are vary low. The question then becomes "Are the bees eating honey JUST for the metabolic water to maintain internal hydration?" I do not know, so I am continuing to search for the article I had in mind.


    Crazy Roland

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,224

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Roland, one article I read a few years ago suggested using a heat exchanger on the exhaust from a wintering facilty because it allows heat to be returned to the facility instead of expelled as waste. I recall some discussion about the effect of humidity on the system. You might do a search with this in mind.
    DarJones - 45 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    6,452

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Fusion_power
    It's all about canola honey and dry air
    Last edited by Ian; 12-13-2013 at 11:16 PM.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,224

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Ian, understood, and recognize your concern. Canola honey is still sugar and the chemical breakdown is still 6 water molecules each time you break the shared hydrogen bonds. That translates to a huge amount of water released from normal metabolism. The question to answer has less to do with humidity in the room and more to do with humidity in the cluster.
    DarJones - 45 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  16. #36
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Bonn, Germany
    Posts
    129

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Thanks Graham , my beesource librarian . Lol

    Humidity must not be as important factor as everyone claims it to be. I'm constantly told, watch your air flows as low humidity can dry out your shed. Yet very little actual study has been done on that. Perhaps just a "known" fact of indoor wintering

    This is just my 8th year of doing it, 5 years primarily. Not a lot of experience with it yet. Still a green horn

    Assessing an acoustic noise in the shed will help you find the optimum air quality for your bees.
    You will immediately hear how good or bad the conditions are and probably change the air flow rate there.
    Consider purchasing a DIGITAL SOUND NOISE LEVEL METER and DATA LOGGER with USB, SD Memory Card Slot and the Software on CD. Plus a tripod and a long usb cable.

  17. #37
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Hudson, WI USA
    Posts
    2,237

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    As I understand it, indoor wintering was standard practice here in the Midwest in the 1900's. In "50 years of Bees" by CC Miller I remember seeing a picture of his worker "Philo" carrying bees into a cellar. A google search later I found Gleanings in Bee Culture, Volume 43 as a free ebook. Page 185 has an article about wintering in Dr Miller's cellar.
    Is there anyone old enough, or versed in beekeeping history, who knows what the tipping point was that made outdoor wintering the most common practice today?
    Last edited by Adrian Quiney WI; 12-14-2013 at 09:19 AM.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    6,452

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    Ian, understood, and recognize your concern. Canola honey is still sugar and the chemical breakdown is still 6 water molecules each time you break the shared hydrogen bonds. That translates to a huge amount of water released from normal metabolism. The question to answer has less to do with humidity in the room and more to do with humidity in the cluster.
    Fusion_power, when indoor wintering beekeepers refer to canola honey as being a point of concern they are refering to the bees inability to access that honey because it granulates so hard and dry. The bees need to access water to be able to dilute the canola stores otherwise they can not access any of it at all. Clusters in the shed that hold a large mass are able to gather condensation within the hive to use, other hives that can not access the condensation will be found as a starved cluster over sheets of canola honey.

    As a beekeeper who collect massive canola crops, I manage my hives throughout the year to minimize the storage of canola honey in the brood chambers and try to manage the hives so that I can back fill the chamber with syrup.

    Yesterday my RH level in the shed was 31% and last night it dipped to 25%. Thats pretty dry,
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    6,452

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Quote Originally Posted by sjj View Post
    Assessing an acoustic noise in the shed will help you find the optimum air quality for your bees.
    I have never heard that before. What does the measured acoustic noise tell you?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  20. #40
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    6,452

    Default Re: Indoor wintering

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    The question to answer has less to do with humidity in the room and more to do with humidity in the cluster.
    Not exactly, in a dry environment they are going to need more moisture to keep hydrated. The question is there enough moisture being consumed daily to satisfy their needs?

    guys up here will water their hives because of this very issue. My questions is what RH levels are we targeting to achieve optimum conditons?
    If its 50-60% as some of the references suggest here, then that means I need to be adding water to the RH 25% shed air
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

Page 2 of 9 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads