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Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

103K views 469 replies 49 participants last post by  mike bispham 
#1 ·
OK, so I've been treatment free for a while and its becoming apparent that something needs to change. Most of my hives get through the first year, but in the second year they die out. Example - I had six hives this year. Two of them were survivors from last year and four of them are new this year. This fall the two year old hives collapsed. One week they are full of bees and looking healthy a week or two later they are gone, with very few dead in the hive. (This happened in late October in Oregon where the temps have been freezing at night)

Both of the two year old hives were from "survivor" stock. One was a nuk purchased at Old Sol and the other was a split from a local hive that has been around for a number of years. I simply cannot get a hive into year three, no matter how what I do. The hives had excellent stores and I even fed pollen patties (from Mann Lake) just to help out. (first time I have done that)

I have no doubt the bees are leaving because of high mite loads but since I don't treat with chemicals I'm not sure what I can do. My hives are made up of a mixture of small cell boards and foundationless frames.

Open to suggestions as I'm very near going back to treating my bees with a miticide.
 
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#5 ·
Treatment Free suffers from the "survivor testament" effect.

In human cancer there have been a succession of miraculous quackery promoted through the breathless "testaments" of [temporarily] surviving patients. Unfortunately, those patients that succumb cannot promote their experience, leaving only those experiencing spontaneous remission (for whatever reason) to report success.

TF Beekeeping is parallel -- hundreds of wishful beekeepers attempt this cure, and most experience the very same symptom you report - dead-out in the second year. Discouraged, they under-report their failure. Novices move on to another hobby and are never heard from again. This constant winnowing means only the "successes" are reported, and completely skews the perception of efficacy.

To my knowledge, there are no "treatment free" advocates that have set up side-by-side controlled experiments of whatever design to test their various (contradictory) theories. I am no TF advocate, but I have endeavored to develop as controlled a side-by-side test apiary as possible. My results, over a decade, show that TF in coastal California is not viable. I use the wild swarm>isolated small apiary model.

The various academic studies which have attempted to include a TF protocol have the same result -- virtual complete extinction of the TF cohort. The advocates complain of design flaws in these studies, but have attempted none of their own.

Anecdote is not Evidence. Serious researchers of cancer have had to cope with this source of false information for decades, and beekeepers should exercise the same skepticism.

It appears from their self-testments that successful TF keepers exist using various methods in various regions of the country. I read their various accounts with an eye to detecting commonalities (which are often at odds with their own self-description).
 
#9 ·
whalers,

sorry to hear about your bees. i haven't been at this very long but i'm starting to see that being able to keep bees successfully off treatments varies by location. i believe that quality of forage and presence of mite tolerant feral colonies may be the most important factors.

it could be that if you keep at it you might end up with mite tolerant bees. you'll have to make the call whether or not your commitment to not using chemicals is more important that suffering losses along the way.

i have been lucky so far in that my colonies are surviving and producing well off treatments. this is not by design as i didn't know anything about mites when i first started, and i did not deliberately set out to be treatment free. that i ended up not using treatments is from a combination of ignorance and/or laziness.

during my first winter with bees, i read everything i could get my hands on about beekeeping. in my opinion the best information out there on the subject is put out by randy oliver. what he has to say about using an integrated pest management approach makes a lot of sense, and may be a way for you to get to where you are trying to go without spending too much time and resources.

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/

good luck.
 
#11 ·
Are you making yearly increase to try to compensate for losses and to improve your genetics? Six hives may (probably) not be enough to be easily sustainable. Are you trying to bring in new improved or complementary genetics?

Furthermore what do you hope to achieve?
 
#20 ·
Yes I have been bringing in improved/complementary genetics. Its what led to my frustration this year. One hive that made it through last year was from "survivor" bee stock. After making it through a heavy mite year last year I thought I had something. Now they are gone. Also a split from a local beeks hive that has been around for years did not make it. Just some examples. Bottom line, I'm NOT making yearly increases. I do not know how to raise queens and am just getting to the point of being comfortable (kind of) of trying to take a split. Whats the best way to take a split? What ever hives make it through the winter I am going to want to split this spring. Just not sure of how to do it. Thanks for your help.
 
#12 ·
You sound like you are at the crossroad that Oldtimer and many others (including me) find themselve at. No loss in the desire to be TF but realising the direct aproach is not going to get it done. The purist may believe that 1 or 2 treatments a year makes no progress towards a bee that can survive TF in a specific location. Maybe true, but a dead bee makes no progress either.
 
#14 ·
NUc, Nuc, nuc. As suggested, a split single gives you twice as many chances to find that queen you are looking for as a single. Michael Palmer style supers over nucs should give you some honey as well as better odds. Splitting early in that 2nd year gives you a new clock.
 
#15 ·
NUc, Nuc, nuc.
I would agree constant requeening or splitting gives you a mite holiday. Those small nucs or singles are much less affected than the "boomer" hives with a stack of supers dripping with honey.

Most hobbyists are anticipating a honey crop and not a pollination check.

In my west-coast Mediterranean climate our last significant rain occurred before Christmas in 2012. You read that right -- no rain all spring, summer, and fall.

In this climate, except for exceptional years, virtually all flow occurs before June. Hives are running on vapors at steady state or in serious dearth all summer and fall.

A nuc strategy (with some honey off the top) is a difficult hobby model -- you overwinter young hives, let them make honey March-April-May, and them break them down completely in a 1>>4 nuc split. There is no honey harvest for the rest of the year. I do use a very similar calendar to make and sell young hives for the January gold rush as the pollination contracts ramp up, so I have healthy, youthful and vigourous started singles that are worth a premium.

The original poster is from Redmond Oregon. This is on the interior (east) side of the Cascades. It should have a mint and alfalfa seed crop with high fall nectar, and high-desert rabbit brush to make some winter stores. Don't know about spring-summer sources (Orchards ?). It will have a large migratory component (commercials working the mint-alfalfa). Commercials imply that the local genotype is going to be Italian commercial strains from escaped swarms. I very much doubt "survivor" stock really means much as a unique genotype in that landscape due to constant introgression from migratory commercials.

If you look at an satellite image of (say) central Nebraska, the only potential wild bee habitat is some very narrow woodlots along streams surrounded by uninterrupted landscape of hundreds (thousands) of acres of corn. This is a classic land-island which provides isolation that might permit a mega-scale genotypic culling and fixing of a new trait.



My region does not have this favorable isolation from background genotype at all, and I doubt that Redmond, Oregon does either.

We don't know from the original post what the forage is for his collapsing hives. One process that does occur is Italians breed themselves into collapse. They build and build, and when the dearth hits the bees are hunger stressed very quickly. Even with stored honey, the pollen dearth seems to affect colony health. The hive over-corrects and drops below a sustainable size. Mites that were bred up on a 60,000 bee "booming" colony, are suddenly in a 10,000 bee colony. This implies a 6x mite load per new larvae-- and the loading is way beyond what can be sustained. A 60,000 bee colony can lose 10,000 bees to DWV virus and still grow. A 10,000 bee colony losing 10,000 bees to DWV (because the source mite number is the same) goes dead-out. This fall collapse syndrome is classic. It is really important to make a mite assessment in late August, when planning for the last fall forage, and decide a strategy.
 
#19 ·
Why not rejuvenate your colonies after the 1st of July
Whaler will have to evaluate if a mid-summer nuc is viable in his (relatively sparse) forage and his (severe) climate. He will get a spring crop (if the small hives overwinter on the high-desert side of the Cascades). Otherwise, he is running in place -- young hives with none of the surplus he desires. He may be trading fall dead-out for winter nuc losses.
 
#17 ·
Whalers; Saltybee is correct, you must split and re-queen each year. You must buy queens that have VSH characteristics and flood your area with their drones. Don't expect to develop resistant bees yourself, you must start with resistance and then select for it in the queens you raise each year. You must do mite counts and be ready to act to help colonies that are ready to crash. IPM is not something I read about very much on Beesource, but my opinion is that it is more practical than going treatment-free.
 
#107 ·
WELL SAID!
I didnt read the rest, so forgive me if I am spouting things already stated.

I am FAR from an expert, but this is the approach I am taking. I have hives composed of feral bees captured from swarms out of KNOWN feral survivors that i DO NOT treat in ANY way.. In fact I try to stay away from them. the problem is that they are not fun to deal with. Manageable in the spring, and BEASTS during honey harvest.. I have vsh cross queens ordered for spring that I will hive in my home yard. I will winter them, check for mites etc.. I will pick the best and split them with no concern for production, working to prepare them for winter. I believe it will take me a few years of doing this to get the best of them singled out and split.. I will then make queens and put them in nuc's in my feral yard in hopes that they mate with the feral drones in an effort to maintain the mite resistance, but end up with bees that are calm...
Will it work?? I have no idea, but I AM CERTAINLY having a ball working toward that goal.. If it does work, I will have GOOD bees to sell. if it doesnt? I had a lot of fun trying...
I know you do not want to treat. I don't either.. However.. if you do a mite check and you know your going to lose that hive... TREAT!!! Save them, and re queen them with the genetics mentioned by others in the attempt to find something better. It is FAR easier to treat an infested hive, and requeen it later than it is to start from scratch. A 20 dollar queen is cheaper than an 80 dollar package that you will likely have to requeen anyhow.
Just my .2
 
#118 ·
I know you do not want to treat. I don't either.. However.. if you do a mite check and you know your going to lose that hive... TREAT!!! Save them, and re queen them with the genetics mentioned by others in the attempt to find something better. It is FAR easier to treat an infested hive, and requeen it later than it is to start from scratch. A 20 dollar queen is cheaper than an 80 dollar package that you will likely have to requeen anyhow.
Just my .2
My problem with that approach is that you don't know what the treatment has done to the bees, the comb, and the hive's ecology, including all the microbes and other organisms that live with, and inside, the bees..

Rather than a 20 dollar queen, why not make a couple splits from your best hives, and then you'll have free bees to replace deadouts? Your queens will be stronger, and the various commensal and symbiotic organisms in the colony will not be injured.

Of course, I'm a beginner, so all this is completely theoretical. So far so good, but I fully expect my hives to start collapsing left and right, and I may end up wishing I'd done things differently.
 
#18 ·
whalers:

You're better off starting out with actual resistant stock. Otherwise, you're odds of success are greatly decreased.

There are a number of commercial stocks that are mite resistant. VSH is one. Tried them, but they starved. :(

I switched to BeeWeavers.

Others are using caught local ferals with success.

I'll agree with those suggesting that you make splits/nucs as a backup.

MDA splitter is one method that uses splits in a treatment free setting.

Good luck, and feel free to blow kisses anytime you want. xxx ;)
 
#21 ·
You'll get quite a few answers for the best way to make splits/nucs.

First thing, protect your drawn frames from your deadouts. Freeze the drawn frames, then store them safely. You'll need them.

The cheapest way to make a split is the walkaway split.

Probably the fastest way is to buy mated queens, and then make up your splits/nucs accordingly.

Then, there's the fun way. Cutting out queen cells, and then using them to make splits/nucs.
 
#23 ·
For the inexperienced hobbyist, the economical and easy way to make increase is buying queens. This allows first-generation improved genetics to be brought to the apiary at minimal cost.

Walk-away splits have a xx% failure rate which is no issue when the experienced keeper can recombine or otherwise manage. They are also free-mated so the background genotype (which I posit is commercial Italian, due to the alfalfa economy).

Prerequisites: 1. nuc or other extra hives,
2. an out-yard for establishment (this really helps).
3. Inexperienced keeps will want to isolate the queen by using a excluder to break up a 2 story broodnest.

The sunk cost in queens is the exorbitant shipping -- 20 queens are as cheap to ship as 1. Co-ordinate with others to maximize the shipping count.

By any realistic measure, buying queens on a time-value basis is better than trying to raise your own until the scale is truely commercial. The specialized breeder-cell builder - finisher - mating nuc system requires a complex series of unstable colonies likely only available in large apiaries. Pushing production colonies to build swarm cells results in cast swarms -- and the colony core is lost to the outside world.

My nuc split follows this pattern:

I split into 5 frame nucs: 2 frames of open (larvae stage) brood, one dry open drawn frame (for the queen to lay into), and two frames of light nectar. In May (or the height of your season) you can split 1 mother hive into at least 2 nucs *and* retain the mother hive. == 3 colonies from a single mother.

Working in the morning, move the mother hive about 30 feet away,
At its old location put two nucs. (foragers return to the nucs, and build a balanced nurse/forager population).
If you have isolated the queen with an excluder, pull off the queen zone, and reestablish it on a bottom board (and cover).

Add the open drawn dry frames to the center of the nucs.
Pull 4 frames of brood with nurse bees intact -- move these quickly into the nucs, 2 per nuc.
Pull 4 frames of honey and put these into the nucs on the outsides.
Close the nucs.
Shake the honey super to dislodge bees -- most will fly back to the nucs and populate them.
Restack the mother hive.

In the evening, move the nucs to the outyard location at least a mile away. Add syrup feeders if the flow has tapered. Return the mother hive to its old location.
In the evening of the following day (>30 hours post split) introduce the queen cages (ends cork plugged), douse the hive liberally with essential oil (mint-lemon).
On the 3rd day, inspect the nuc for balling or other queen issues. Remove the plug to expose the candy or marshmellow seal. On the 6th day inspect (and remove) the cage. Releasing the queen if still caged.

Inspect the mother hive to ascertain that the original queen is still extant and hive functioning on the third day. If depopulation has been severe, exchange position with a strong hive to balance.

I schedule several of these splits on a rolling calendar about 1 week apart. This allows any disasters to be requeened with only a one week lag, if you are shy a queen simply do a 1 to 2 split instead of the 1 to 3. Boomer hives will support a 1 to 5 split, but usually this depopulates the mother hive severely (I've done this to get a mean hive back to manageable size). A risk on the 2 nuc procedure is all the bees will try and crowd into one hive (leaving the open larvae unattended). You can move them around at the outyard, or in recalcitrant cases simply combine into a single 10 frame box.

Splitting hard like this general convinces a swarm ready colony to settle down.
 
#24 ·
For the inexperienced hobbyist, the economical and easy way to make increase is buying queens. This allows first-generation improved genetics to be brought to the apiary at minimal cost.

Walk-away splits have a xx% failure rate which is no issue when the experienced keeper can recombine or otherwise manage. They are also free-mated so the background genotype (which I posit is commercial Italian, due to the alfalfa economy).
Great post JW, thanks for sharing your technique. Walk-away splits are also not an option for those of us below the AHB line and concerned with their traits.
 
#25 ·
My thanks for all the feedback here. I need to review it all so I can summarize things into a plan for next season. I'll post my summary here for additional comments. One thing to keep in mind (as one person made note of) I'm at an elevation of 3100 feet and our season is short here. Long enough to make solid stores and even provide and good amount of honey, but a splits need to be made early in the season to have a chance. I wish I could find local stock, but there is just very little to be had. Thanks again.
 
#27 ·
A few more considerations...
Start taking mite counts early and often. This is the only way to tell if a particular hive will a mite problem for sure. Some hives will be more resistant than others and if the mite load becomes high consider finding a way to reduce mite load and requeen with hopefully a better queen. An IPM approach is very sustainable and will help you identify your most resistant bees.

Also the young queen rules... A break in the brood cycle and a vigorous young queen from selected stock can make a huge difference. We have a lot of clients that like to requeen in August and September so a prime young queen heads up the winter cluster. A new queen in August will just be hitting her prime the following spring so production should be good providing nutrition is adequate and pest/pathogen levels are low. Some of the most important bees you grow all year will be your August/September bees as these bees rear the population that will become your winter cluster. This is a critical period so nutrition, pest management, and a vigorous top performing queen are essentials.
 
#30 ·
A few more considerations...
if the mite load becomes high consider finding a way to reduce mite load and requeen with hopefully a better queen. An IPM approach is very sustainable and will help you identify your most resistant bees.

This is a critical period so nutrition, pest management, and a vigorous top performing queen are essentials.
Thanks JBJ, excuse my ignorance please but what is "IPM approach"? Also, what would you suggest as a way to reduce mite loads in Aug/Sept. I open to most anything and its becoming obvious that this is a part of my management that needs to improve.
 
#28 ·
This fall collapse syndrome is classic. It is really important to make a mite assessment in late August, when planning for the last fall forage, and decide a strategy.[/QUOTE]

JWChesnut - you have a pretty good picture of what its like here with a couple exceptions. There are no commercial fields of any kind nearby. Some pasture ground for hobby farms with associated clover. We do have a lot of rabbitbrush in the open rangeland around us and I have made a point of planting a number of things on our acre that provide some additional fall forage. I have been suspicious about the fall dearth of pollen and this year fed pollen patties, and I believe you have really nailed exactly what is happening. So the obvious question, after making a mite assessment in August and finding a high mite count what is an appropriate "strategy".
 
#32 ·
Have you considered trying drone trapping? Ed Levi over in Arkansas does that with great success. What I don't understand is why drone trapping is considered, for purposes of this forum, to be a "treatment" but splitting, which has a more profound effect on a hive, is not. (I personally get the nerve up to talk myself into treatment-free but end of chickening out and using thymol and/or hopguard.)
 
#33 ·
There was a thread a month or so ago, mostly about AHB but also about a high dry country black bee population if I have the details correctly. If someone has a better memory than I that might be an ideal line to try.
 
#34 ·
What bothers me about the assertions of the chemical-control contingent here is that they seem to be unaware of certain financial realities that govern research.

They complain about the lack of closely controlled trials of various treatment-free strategies, apparently not understanding that there is no money to be made in not treating bees. Why should a beekeeper who has experienced success while not treating risk any of his colonies in any controlled trials? There is no incentive.

On the other hand, there seem to be very few long-term studies that attempt to quantify the damage that chemical treatments undoubtedly do to the colony. With some of the treatments touted here-- thyme oil, oxalic, hopguard, there do not seem to be the sort of trials that would justify the amount of faith invested in them. Yes, these treatments kill mites. Do they really contribute to long-lived colonies? Who knows?

When you look a the actual numbers, the idea that chemical treatments are justified becomes even less supportable. The original poster lost a third of his hives. According to the BeeInformed survey, so did commercial beekeepers in the season just past, who lost over a third of their hives, despite the fact that almost all of them treat. If this level of loss is unsupportable without treatment, why is it any better with treatment?

From an outsider's point of view, the amount of faith that advocates of chemical treatment have in their various potions does not seem to be reflected in the actual state of the industry, which lately has had losses called by some insiders "catastrophic." Complain all you like about the lack of treatment-free trials, but do not ignore the inconvenient epidemiology, which does not support the longtime efficacy of most chemical treatments.

That is both dishonest and intellectually lazy.
 
#36 ·
In the end, getting one or two mite tolerant colonies is not enough to tilt the balance. I used three strategies to go treatment free.

1. I found and re-queened with mite tolerant stock. This is the single most important step.
2. I converted to small cell. This has only a minor effect, but it works well with running 11 frames in a brood chamber.
3. I forced swarming from my colonies to saturate the area with mite tolerant ferals.

Several posts were made in a different thread that this can't be done in an area with large numbers of commercial treated migratory colonies. I can't directly argue to that except to say that there are 12 beekeepers within 5 miles of me. How do I know there are 12? A few years ago, Kelley shipped catalogs to all the beekeepers in this town in a tied bundle and mine happened to be on top. I got to see the names and addresses of the others. I know 5 or 6 of them to speak to. There is one beekeeper 5 miles north of me who has 4 colonies all from my mite tolerant stock. There is another beekeeper 35 miles east of me with 2 colonies from my mite tolerant bees. Both got started in the last 2 years.

I've been treatment free since 2005. I don't worry about mites at all... ever. I don't do mite counts. I don't use monitoring boards. I don't spend money and time on anything associated with mites. I leave my bees to handle them. So far, they have done so with ease. My winter losses are 10% or less. I am only running 10 colonies at present. The woods nearby are full of mite tolerant bees. I can tell because I catch a few swarms every year and I know for sure that they are not from my colonies. Next year, I plan to split my 10 colonies into at least 20 and spread a few more around. Two more people have requested colonies. I will find some more who are interested and I will make sure they get a start with mite tolerant bees.

Please don't think that everyone can do what I am doing. If you are getting saturated with commercial colonies every year, your bees will outcross and lose the tolerance within a couple of years. If you start with "local bees" or unselected bees, you may or may not be dealing with significant tolerance. Under those conditions, mite monitoring and selection would be required. I wish Dann Purvis were still producing queens. He had relatively good stock with very high levels of tolerance.
 
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