Page 22 of 24 FirstFirst ... 122021222324 LastLast
Results 421 to 440 of 470
  1. #421
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,656

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    What is wrong is that you say brood breaks to get bees over the hump are wrong, but feeding to get them over the hump is okay. This is an inconsistent position, it seems to me. You've said that bees that do not live without beekeeper intervention are better dead, I believe. You seem to be making an exception for yourself here.
    We have to distinguish between the effects of one act (intervention) and another.

    Remember, my primary aim (A1)is to build a varroa resistant apiary. This is all about understanding how to allow bees and mites to co-evolve such that the former are not bothered by the latter - and helping the process along.

    To that end I need to understand how that happens - by studying how nature works - and act in ways that allow and encourage that to happen.

    To do that I need bees, and lots of them. I need colonies. So a second high aim (A2) is keep alive any colony that can supply me with bees.

    Whatever I do to meet the second need must not conflict with the primary need. That's all.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    If you do not feed and the bees die, then perhaps you should have split the hives during a time when it was more favorable for the new colonies to build up. For the most past, that's what wild bees would do-- they swarm when the parent hive has enough surplus.
    I did, and many of my early splits haven't run short of food. Some have run short because I subsequently re-split them, or took stores and brood to make new splits. Some may have run short because they are inadequate in some way. That will show in due course.

    I kept on splitting well into August, partly to see if/how well they'd mate (learning is important too) and partly in an effort to raise numbers more to meet A2. I did this in the knowledge that they'd need feeding up hard. But I'd underestimated the degree to which they got robbed. Some simply couldn't build at all - and I think this may be because they we unable to defend themselves - they may be very good queens, but I didn't give them a good chance to make it alone.

    Don't forgot I have notes about all this. If they build into good colonies this year, I can look at each one, when it was made, from whom, how well it built etc. in making judgements about whether I want to use it to supply genes.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Furthermore, you have criticized the brood breaks attendant upon making increase as some sort of artificial manipulation that does not put selective pressure on the bees to survive on their own.
    That's right. Brood breaks as a routine way of controlling varroa preserve lines with no inbuilt resistance. That conflicts with my primary aim.

    Don't forget mine get no treatment at all. Their degree of abilty to handle mites will be plain in due course.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    You are using exactly the same rationale for feeding bees as the rationale used by those who do other things to ensure their bees' survival-- necessity.
    Both rationales may appear similar but they aren't when you look at the effect in the real world. Then the two are revealed as completely different.

    I'm not preserving unresistant genetics, and allowing them to spread, thus undercutting the all-important co-evolution both in my apiary and around it. That would be to undercut my own primary aim. Brood breaking does just that.

    Take note too that while my primary breeding aim is resistant bees (and to that end I need lots of bees), other high aims are productivity and self-sufficiency. I am taking care to breed from the best, and so won't tolerate an inability to build well, at an appropriate time of year, and to make and keep stores.

    But this year increase is a high second priority, while minimising any drawbacks that might present toward skewing other aims. To resistance there's no compromise at all.

    I think that's a workable plan. As I said, this is an art as well as a science, and that my is best attempt at something that might work for me, given my aims and priorities.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    You say, "Most likely there is nothing wrong with them..." but you cannot know that. You don't really know if, by feeding, you are propping up inferior stock.
    I'll find out next year, or the year after, if there is something wrong with them. Till then I want them to make bees to expand with - and possibly for their genetics too. Don't forget they were made from some of my best, and mated in places I thought worthwhile... They might be equally be precious little packages...

    Last year I found that the biggest drag on expansion was a shortage of bees with which to make more bees. I'm doing what I can within my main aims to overcome that problem this year.

    Bear in mind I don't know if there's something wrong with most of my colonies, since I don't mark queens, or monitor inside all the hive closely. I don't know if the ones that are still going well after 3 years on no treatment haven't superceded, mated badly, and are about to collapse. (I do have 4 selected queens sequestered in nucs and watched closely).

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    If you are true to the ideals you have proclaimed here, you should not be making increase when survival is iffy.
    I think you might have an incomplete picture of what my ideals are. Visit my website - unchanged since loaded 3 1/2 years ago - to get a better picture of what my (unchanged) idea of bee problems is.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    By doing so, you risk contaminating your gene pool with stock that does not measure up, because you are not in a position to evaluate the stock under fair conditions.
    You never are. You never are. This is a game of chance, and the method is to shift the probabilities in your favour as much as possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    An inability to make adequate stores for your climate is just as fatal a weakness as a lack of resistance to pests and disease.
    I hope I've dealt with the basis of that complaint to your satisfaction now Ray.

    Mike (UK)

    PS I haven't opened the usual suspects' contribitions today, but I gather there's a complaint about my altering posts. I often edit posts later in order to improve clarity. But I don't, and wouldn't, shift a position in order to try to sucker someone. I pride myself on being an honest interlocutor. I think the event that caused trouble was one in which a response was made very soon after I'd posted. That's the worst time. Give it an hour or so and you'll probably see the final version.
    Last edited by mike bispham; 01-11-2014 at 09:08 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  2. #422
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,093

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Very interesting that in Mike's response to Ray, he did not address how propping up weak colonies with feeding fondant was philosophically different than propping up weak colonies with brood breaks.



    Perhaps Ray could be enticed to follow up on this topic of interest.




    It seems practical reality still trumps philosophy!
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  3. #423
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Hudson, WI USA
    Posts
    2,197

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Mike, how many colonies you ultimately want to expand to? I note from Michael Palmer's video that beekeeping is much more expensive in the UK than over here. By having a tag line that points to "joinery" I assume you make your own boxes, etc?

  4. #424
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    West Bath, Maine, United States
    Posts
    1,137

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    What's the old line about prostitution; Then we are not talking about morals, we are talking about price.

    When talking about purity of theory, we all have a cost threshold. Praise to those who have met theirs and reduced it.
    4 yrs, Peak 14, back to zip, T lite; godfather to brother's 3.

  5. #425
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,656

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Quiney WI View Post
    Mike, how many colonies you ultimately want to expand to?
    Adrian,

    Ultimately... who knows. My current 2014 year target is to try to get to 100.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adrian Quiney WI View Post
    I note from Michael Palmer's video that beekeeping is much more expensive in the UK than over here. By having a tag line that points to "joinery" I assume you make your own boxes, etc?
    Largely yes. To be honest it would be cheaper buying them in the winter sales, but that would take wherewithal that isn't available. I still have to buy frames. I don't buy much wax.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  6. #426
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,256

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    Very interesting that in Mike's response to Ray, he did not address how propping up weak colonies with feeding fondant was philosophically different than propping up weak colonies with brood breaks.



    Perhaps Ray could be enticed to follow up on this topic of interest.
    No... I give up. I'm trying to take a more Zen-like attitude these days.
    Ray--1 year, 7 hives, TF

  7. #427
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,093

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Frames!



    Maybe there is a particular breed of woodpeckers that creates those "natural" frames for their bee friends.




    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  8. #428
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,656

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    Very interesting that in Mike's response to Ray, he did not address how propping up weak colonies with feeding fondant was philosophically different than propping up weak colonies with brood breaks.
    So you're saying that while I explained in detail that the effect was very different, and therefore the rationales that appeared similar actually weren't, I didn't say how it was philosophically different. Is that right?

    Hmmm. Philosophically different. Hmmm.

    Well, 'philosophically' has several different meanings, but we'll go with the one you probably mean, along lines of 'school of thought.'

    My 'philosophy of beekeeping'. Hmmm. Well, I suppose that's subsumed under my philosophy of life - whatever that is.

    Nope. Not going to make progress with this. Tell me what you mean by 'philosophically different'.

    Unless... loosely speaking my approach to beekeeping generally could be described as a 'philosophy of beekeeping'... in which case, as outlined, its all about raising resistance as would happen should things be left to nature. I'd like things to return to how they were when I wa a kid and there were wild bees all over the place. So there's an eco/conservation 'philosophy' in play.

    Feeding artificially, at least for the time being doesn't go against the grain of that poisition. Artificial brood breaks do.

    But I've already said that. Oh well. I tried.

    Wait a minute! (editing now)

    You're doing exactly what Ray accused me of. The fallacy of excluded middle. You're trying to say that there are two ways to approach beekeeping - the 'natural' and the 'unnatural' (I presume), and I'm being
    inconsistent because I'm seeming to appeal to one while acting in the other.

    I'm saying that natural selection for the fittest strains is the way life works, and what we need to study and mirror (and don't forget that's Ruttner's position, and that of every breeder in the world).

    And that makes me a 'natural' beekeeper (whatever that is, and despite my clearly saying that isn't so)

    But that because I also act in ways to preserve (at least temporarily) failing stock, I'm doing unnatural things, and therefore my position is inconsistent.

    That is based on the assumption that there is all-natural beekeeping and unnatural beekeeping and nothing in between.

    Not only are the catagories rubbish, there are an almost infinite amount of approaches in between.

    My approach makes sense to me Graham, as it made sense to Ruttner, and to Manley, and as it makes sense to John Kefuss, and thousands of other keeper/breeders working at raising resistance. I'm sorry you can't make sense of it - perhaps you will be able to one day. Now I'm tired of trying to explain it for you.

    I do hope you grow out of the emoticons business. It really does come across as very childish.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 01-11-2014 at 10:19 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  9. #429
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,093

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    The problem, Mike, is that your philosophy as explained in this thread, is full of logical holes. It is not just me that sees those holes, but includes Oldtimer, Rhaldrige, Gmcharlie, Barry, Squarepeg and virtually everyone else that you have responded to in this thread. Just go back and look at the responses you have got ...



    By special request - no emoticons in this post. But I really doubt that you are going to like this post any better than the rest.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  10. #430
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,991

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    No... I give up. I'm trying to take a more Zen-like attitude these days.
    As we learn, we mellow. Well, most of us.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  11. #431
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    jackson county, alabama, usa
    Posts
    4,527

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    As we learn, we mellow. Well, most of us.
    i'm giving it my best shot.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  12. #432
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,211

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Jack Daniels has mellowing down to an art. 7 years in an oak barrel is just about right. Not sure I could take 7 years in a barrel though, I might "kick the bucket".
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  13. #433
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Coatesville, Pa, USA
    Posts
    833

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    I was just out to one of my yards, had 9 hives alive and well 3 weeks ago, now I have 4. 3 look good, while one has a cluster about the size of my fist. I'm definitely up for "something to change". One hive I knew was small and with the extreme cold we had I wasn't surprised to see them gone. Two were great 3 weeks ago. 1' diameter cluster at least. The bees were gone in both hives. Only a very few on the bottom board. Maby 30 bees or so. No queens, no nothing. Any ideas? They both had plenty of stores. Both still had 1 deep 7 frame box full of capped stores.

  14. #434
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,656

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    The problem, Mike, is that your philosophy as explained in this thread, is full of logical holes. It is not just me that sees those holes, but includes Oldtimer, Rhaldrige, Gmcharlie, Barry, Squarepeg and virtually everyone else that you have responded to in this thread. Just go back and look at the responses you have got ...

    By special request - no emoticons in this post. But I really doubt that you are going to like this post any better than the rest.
    I love it! really I do! Partly because of the lack of emoticons, but more because you have engaged with the conversation and expressed yourself well. That gives me traction!

    Frst, lets try again with that slippery business of a 'philosophy.' I'm not sure that its a helpful way of looking at things, but I'll give it a try. If I can be said to have a 'philosophy' of beekeeping, its 'scientific'. That means, its evidence-based, consistent with scientific literature, and internally logical. It means my models - we all have models - are held as tightly as possible to what is real. And what is regarded as 'real' is what the scientific consensus accepts as real.

    Science (as I'm sure you know) is defined as 'the systematic study of Nature'. Of course that means Nature in all its incredible variety; but for us, concerned with living things, it means Biology and Evolution. Knowledge - fairly basic, but not that basic - of these two subject areas supplies the foundations of my understanding of the problems in the bee world.

    To that end I've tried to ensure my understanding is particularly consistent with the scientific beekeepers - people like Ruttner, Kefuss, Marla Spivak - Phd's all. And I've worked hard to to ensure my understanding is consistent with those tf beekeepers that seem to be succeeding - including some here. You'll note that none of them have taken issue with my basic position - though we've haggled over minor details at times.

    Of course that understanding also has to be consistent with the evidence of my own eyes.

    Science, and philosophy, are both founded in logic. I have a BA in philosophy, so I'm familiar with that principle, and as part of that BA I took a special interest in philosophy of science, so I have a little idea of how these things link up.

    So that's the basis of my 'philosophy'. I try to stick close to what is real - as revealed by up to date scientific understanding. I might not like what is real - I often don't - but I've learned to live with the fact that I can't change it.

    Now then: the fact that some here have disagreed with aspect of my posts doesn't mean that either they have been right (though they may have been, and they may have been partly right). Nor does it mean they've been wrong. Nor does it mean they've been illogical, nor that I've been illogical (though all and any of us may have been).

    What it means in my view is that they haven't seen the logic that underlies my posts. The recent stuff is a good example.

    I've argued that there is a difference between brood breaks and feeding, based on the effects. I've laid out my thinking, and in my view it makes logical sense.

    If the effect of two acts is different, then the acts have to be regarded as belonginging in different classes. That's a sound and logical position. Wouldn't you agree?

    Now, you cite a number of posters above, who have disagreed with me at various times, in various ways. Some more than others. In constructive conversation people do disagree with each other! It doesn't follow that one or the other is being illogical! Not all those conversations have been constructive. Some have been plain bad tempered. In some cases people don't like the logical consequences of what I've said, and have chosen to attack either the facts, or the evidence, or the logic of my positions. Or me personally. And we've set too - and may have ended up agreeing, and may not. None of that entails that any of us is being illogical either (although in my view at times a few have been)!

    Sometimes the set-toos have been very emotionally charged. People often don't like to be told of facts that make them think they've been doing things wrong. They often don't like someone with less experience than them trying to put them straight. And so the conversations have got a bit intense. That's normal too. Again, it doesn't make anybody wrong, or illogical - it just means they're coming at things from different perspectives.

    Try this Rader. Try first to forget you've ever met me. Then work through my website - the thesis - understanding that it was written after 20 years of thought and study, and with the oversight of an appropriate scientist - a phd. You can trust: it isn't wrong in its science. See if you can spot any specific inconsistencies in all that, and between that and anything I've said here. If you think you can, ask me for an explanation. If you find any I'll be very grateful. And make your own mind up about my abilities, or lack of them. Don't rely on the -apparent - judgement of others.

    Many people don't like what I have to say, and for all sorts of reasons. And they have a pop. But that doesn't make it wrong. That doesn't mean they've 'spotted holes'. It means, in some cases, they don't welcome the consequenses that flow from from my positions. If you're doing brood breaks and thinking you're doing a great non-treatment thing, and helping bees, and helping beekeeper, and then someone comes along and says: hmmm is this actually really helping... its gonna be upsetting.

    It might also mean they don't understand the underlying reasoning. It often means 'please supply some clarification - I'm curious'.

    Don't make the mistake of thinking that because lots of people are engaging with my positions it follows as a matter of course that what I say is illogical. Its mostly just people trying to work out where the truth lies by testing each other's arguments.

    You say my 'philosophy' is full of holes. Never mind the 'philosophy' - if you think something I've said is flawed, tell me why - exactly. And we'll have a conversation about it.

    I hope this helps. Thanks again for respecting my wishes re emoticons.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 01-12-2014 at 03:29 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  15. #435
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,991

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    So, how are your bees coming along?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  16. #436
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,656

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    So, how are your bees coming along?
    Fine. 2 down from Autumn shutdown to be specific. About 29 left. Or maybe its 31. Must count them properly sometime.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  17. #437
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,991

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Well that's pretty good for TF maybe it's working, I do recall a few months ago you had 40.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  18. #438
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Good luck on developing resistant stock.

    I wouldn't pay too much attention to the naysayers. They're YOUR bees.

    In the final analysis, you're on your own anyway.

  19. #439
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,093

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Well, Mike, it appears that you chose not to go back and review the earlier responses that I mentioned above.



    Good luck to you on your quest. In this case I agree with WLC - you're on your own.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  20. #440
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,656

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Well that's pretty good for TF maybe it's working, I do recall a few months ago you had 40.
    Lost a couple of nucs to robbing/poor mating, rest condensed for overwintering to 33 I think. I've lost two and thought that would mean 31 left, but I can only (mentally) find 29.

    The two lost were adjacent. One was a drone layer. I'd popped a nuc on top in late autumn, more in hope than expectation, and as an experiment - against all advice. The other was doing fine and a good weight.

    When I visited a few days ago the Q- had abandoned their stores and moved in next door. There the increased number had chewed through stores and starved.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

Page 22 of 24 FirstFirst ... 122021222324 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads