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  1. #341
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    all I asked for was a sip of that same koolaid
    I understand your position, but in this case, you haven't pumped the water, or stirred in the sugar and flavoring. In other words, you want someone else's koolaid to drink. This is not necessarily a bad thing, you just need to find someone who has koolaid to share. I'm not a queen breeder by choice. I run a business growing and selling tomato plants which means I am super busy at the time most beekeepers are raising queens. This does not mean I can't raise queens, but it does mean I can't do them on someone else's schedule.

    I will see if I can work in a few extra queens this spring, but no promises and no argument if I can't work them in.
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  2. #342
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    I understand your position, but in this case, you haven't pumped the water, or stirred in the sugar and flavoring. In other words, you want someone else's koolaid to drink. This is not necessarily a bad thing, you just need to find someone who has koolaid to share. I'm not a queen breeder by choice. I run a business growing and selling tomato plants which means I am super busy at the time most beekeepers are raising queens. This does not mean I can't raise queens, but it does mean I can't do them on someone else's schedule.

    I will see if I can work in a few extra queens this spring, but no promises and no argument if I can't work them in.
    Didn't pump the water?? or stir?? really.. you make this assumption how?? based on 5 years of actual studies that don't agree with the claims?? based on thousands of dollars spent on "perfect queens" or maybe its the hours spent hunting down local feral queens that are not up to snuff???

    Wow some people her really do think they walk on water....

    I wouldn't argue a bit, been very careful to not name the others who made claims and then changed there minds... except for the one who lied about it...... Never my point to "call out" or rub noses. Just trying to see if the same results can be duplicated.

  3. #343
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    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    You're the one who equated the lottery with those who have had success with TF inferring it was chance. As I said, we all work under the same chance. You work hard, and so do "those" TF beekeepers that are having success.

    Ask for queens, but realize you're asking for something that took someone else years to acquire through hard work as well. I didn't see anything in your test that would be any different than a guy who treats, except you didn't treat. I didn't realize that's what TF has come to. It sure wasn't that simple and easy for me.
    Some of the participants in these discussions are driving motorized goal posts. For example, gmcharlie seems to feel that if you use brood breaks to knock back mite populations, you aren't really a TF beekeeper. Apparently that's an "extreme manipulation."

    It's almost as though you have to keep bees exactly like grampa did, or it doesn't count.

    My beginner opinion is that genetics are only a part of the solution, at least at this point.
    Ray--1 year, 7 hives, TF

  4. #344
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    May 2009
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    Canterbry, UK
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Why is that? Most who are TF now didn't start with resistant stock. I sure didn't. I'll put my neck on the block. I'm helping to get my neighbor started in beekeeping. We started in the spring with a package of California bees. The last place anyone would desire their bees to come from! (you west coasters stay out of this!) They are currently alive and over wintering in 3 mediums. We'll be increasing to about four hives total. We're using PF120 foundation in wooden frames. I'll keep you posted.
    Is that a house rule? You must start with duff stock? A lot of people believe that unless you are lucky enough to have a functional feral population nearby, importing resistant genes will make things a lot faster. Is that against some tf rule? If not why not encourage and facilitate it?

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  5. #345
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Some of the participants in these discussions are driving motorized goal posts. For example, gmcharlie seems to feel that if you use brood breaks to knock back mite populations, you aren't really a TF beekeeper. Apparently that's an "extreme manipulation."
    I believe that too Ray. At least, if that's all you do, or the main method. If you're also breeding hard its more or less John Kefus' Soft Bond method.

    Artificial brood breaks remove the evolutionary/breeding pressure. You need that pressure to get to self sufficient bees. That's the only proper yardstick - in my view.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  6. #346
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Is that a house rule? You must start with duff stock?
    No, it's a very real house option. There are very few "rules" in beekeeping. I'm speaking from experience. I believe you're speaking theory, primarily. How long have you been TF?
    Regards, Barry

  7. #347
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    really.. you make this assumption how??

    based on 5 years of actual studies that don't agree with the claims??
    Stay cool Charlie. A really good run down of exactly what you did do - your own experience - would help others evaluate your effort, and perhaps help see why it didn't work.

    5 years of studying those that failed doesn't really amount to much here. We tend to be interested in studying those that are succeeding.

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    based on thousands of dollars spent on "perfect queens" or maybe its the hours spent hunting down local feral queens that are not up to snuff???
    It could be that you're taking queens that might have made it treated more carefully, and ferals that aren't up to scratch because they're little more than escapees. If you're putting these queens among other hives containing fiercely fecund mites, a little drift, a little robbing - its easy to see where things might have gone wrong.

    But I'm just speculating. Without a clear idea of what you did its impossible to evaluate that sort of scenario.

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    Just trying to see if the same results can be duplicated.
    As others have pointed out, duplication means working your own way up. You've already learned that you can't duplicate their (claimed) results by just dumping them among yours. Its likely they got to their results by keeping well away from - no offense - bees like yours. That's the bit you might have to duplicate. You might have to do other things too.

    Tell us what you did.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  8. #348
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    No, it's a very real house option. There are very few "rules" in beekeeping. I'm speaking from experience. I believe you're speaking theory, primarily. How long have you been TF?
    There are a few good rules in husbandry. Call them 'theory' all you like. The 'theory' has been around a long time, and seems to be universally accepted by all successful tf beekeepers I've ever talked with.

    Four years. And no recourse to artificial comb.

    Do you stay with artificial comb btw, or do you let them build their own once 'regressed'?

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  9. #349
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    I have stayed with the comb I started with, which was SC wax foundation. Some true to size, a lot a mixture of size. Never have gone to foundationless comb. Working with plastic SC now and like what I see.
    Regards, Barry

  10. #350
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    May 2009
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I have stayed with the comb I started with, which was SC wax foundation. Some true to size, a lot a mixture of size. Never have gone to foundationless comb. Working with plastic SC now and like what I see.
    Any idea what happens when your bees have to go without? Swarms outward - do they un-'regress' and fall prey to mites because they're back in big cells?

    Is this a known in the sc community - what happens when you take away the prop? What's the evidence?

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  11. #351
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    May 2009
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    Flora,IL
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Agreed Mike... As for moving goal post, hardly... I fully agree you can keep bees Via constant manapulation instead of treating, But thats not what SOME are claiming. several of the guys claim they never manipulate, I could list them, but its a moot point. of you follow this TF thread you know who they are....
    I am NOT saying they are wrong... I will say that if there correct, they are foolish. the value in sales of what they seem to have is huge! billions are spent every year on bees. You have the answer and you don't have time to share?? really??

    But back to the point Mike, I didn't "dump them in with losers" and even if I did, that should be a moot point?? everybody keeping there hives isolated out in the woods and just using them that way to pick queens?? not ready for prime time.

    My hives are spread over a 2 county area. no more than 8 to a spot, queen test are just the 4 being tested in that location. Mite counts were dropped as much as possible by brood breaks before the start. and the hives used were "clean" no treated combs whatsoever. (thats changing this year) OA seems to be a requirement.

    I did 2 years on natural, and small cell, and found no differences in Mite levels. Not saying they are bad, but the results were surprisingly the same as before.
    Keep in mind I started a lot of this testing, because as an engineer, I know its better to do the test, than debate it. I drank the Kool-aid I think Tf is the right way to go... so been testing it. I even bought a lot of the Hype that its "southern queens" so tested that a bit also.
    I have tested VSH and hygenic queens also... Got to admit, never checked mites to see if there chewed on......
    I have had a cpl of hives that showed early promise. Low mites... unfortunatly that has not stuck. I think a lot of those good results were based on supercedures, as they were unmarked queens.

    If "duplication" means you have to follow up the mountain in my tracks and if you miss a step it doesn't work, then its hocus pocus...not an answer.
    If the perfect solution, only works, say in the desert of NM, or wherever, then its not any progress...

    Again, my goal is not to point out hypocrisy or anything else.. its to try what others are claiming works. Unfortunately it seems to me that certain areas when you call , your suddenly the bad guy.......
    Heck, I would love to try some of yours, but given the regulations, that won't work out.

    Maybe we just have super mites....here in the midwest.

  12. #352
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    Feb 2012
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    West Bath, Maine, United States
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Barry, as one who is guilty of using the lottery analogy I apologize in part. It does imply it is all luck and not skill.
    When I read someone say the equivalent of " I caught my first swarm, never treated and never had a problem, what is wrong with you." Well the lottery does come to mind. Not denying I may hear it when it is not being said either.
    No insult intended.
    4 yrs, Peak 14, back to zip, T lite; godfather to brother's 3.

  13. #353
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    Dec 1999
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    I will say that if there correct, they are foolish. the value in sales of what they seem to have is huge! billions are spent every year on bees. You have the answer and you don't have time to share?? really??
    Again, you seem to be the one saying this is the answer. What other longterm TF beekeeper is saying this? I think of Lusby and Bush as two examples. I've never heard either one say this is the silver bullet.
    Regards, Barry

  14. #354
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    But back to the point Mike, I didn't "dump them in with losers" and even if I did, that should be a moot point??
    Yes and no...

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    My hives are spread over a 2 county area. no more than 8 to a spot, queen test are just the 4 being tested in that location.
    Is that adjacent to, mixed with... this might be a critical point

    The mites in treated apiaries may well be stupidly fecund - the system effectively breeds them that way. The bees and mites that can co-exist quite likely rely - at times - on mites 'bred' by the (VSH) bees to have few offspring - that can't therefore blow up their population quickly, and are thus controllable.

    This co-evolved state may well be able to handle the odd influx of apiary mites (which will breed with the less fecund, breeding out high fecundity) but unable to cope with strong influxes. Some distance is therefore a game-maker.

    Does that sound useful?

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    Got to admit, never checked mites to see if there chewed on......
    Have you tried the frozen-brood test? (Has anyone here used the frozen brood test?)

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    If "duplication" means you have to follow up the mountain in my tracks and if you miss a step it doesn't work, then its hocus pocus...not an answer.
    It might just be a snag Charlie, something like too close to too many of the wrong sort of mites, that and one or two other things.

    Have you given a proper Soft Bond method a go?

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    Again, my goal is not to point out hypocrisy or anything else.. its to try what others are claiming works. Unfortunately it seems to me that certain areas when you call , your suddenly the bad guy.......
    Tell me about it

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    Maybe we just have super mites....here in the midwest.
    Maybe not confined to the midwest, but to all systematically treating apiaries. Maybe anyplace where there are too many of them nearby.

    What about that Soft Bond, lowering treatment levels to a minimum and using frozen brood tests on your 20% most productive; doing what you cen to get the stronger drone numbers up...? (As I recall)

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  15. #355
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Saltybee View Post
    Barry, as one who is guilty of using the lottery analogy I apologize in part. It does imply it is all luck and not skill.
    When I read someone say the equivalent of " I caught my first swarm, never treated and never had a problem, what is wrong with you." Well the lottery does come to mind. Not denying I may hear it when it is not being said either.
    No insult intended.
    OK, I didn't go back far enough to see where this phrase started. But in your context, I have no problem with the lottery comparison. It's addressing a specific mindset/group within TF. Until I see someone keeping bees TF for over say 5 years, I don't put much weight in their "success." I also don't require success to mean they've grown to 100 plus hives. As long as they can maintain their numbers without treatments, great, that works for me.
    Regards, Barry

  16. #356
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    As long as they can maintain their numbers without treatments, great, that works for me.
    Two serious questions Barry:

    Do brood breaks count as 'treatment' for you?

    How about small cell foundation and plastic comb?

    Also; do you agree with my gold standard: tf is reached only when bees are able to thrive completely unaided?

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  17. #357
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    If the perfect solution, only works, say in the desert of NM, or wherever, then its not any progress...
    I agree. And the perfect solution is not perfect. It's tailored to fit each beekeeper in their local environment. The stresses your bees encounter are not necessarily the ones my bees experience. The point of TF is to work through all the issues and test to see what works. Even most commercial beekeepers do this. Some find they can manage with very little treatment and have even narrowed it down to which treatment is the softest and still be effective. You won't hear me saying it works for me so you have to do it my way.
    Regards, Barry

  18. #358
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    interesting thoughts Mike, most of the hives are more than a Mile apart (forage issues here in crop ground) interesting thought about mites. I would add that 3 years ago, I lost ALL hives in a late march snowstorm, so theoretically i started over with mite also...

    I fully agree that Mite control may be a Compound solution. IPM, SBB, small cell, local desert and some genetic line. But so far Few to None have been able to move that combo out of certian areas.
    Its extremely rude and arrogant to come on a site like this and say " I can do it so you havent paid your dues" when the answer is so much more complex. Barrys and other comments that I haven't worked that hard are just that.

    What's even worse in my mind, is if you have the complete answer, one that "can be duplicated" and your sitting on it. Okay so your not greedy and don't want to "sell queens" but your going to keep your secrets and genetics to yourself?? wow thats the worst thing I can think of..

    Thats like owning the cure for cancer and keeping it to your self.

    MB and Lusbys methods are being copied and tested everywhere... and like the OP in this thread. not all is Joy in beeland.

    As for my breeding, I am not a bee genetics wizards. what little breeding I do is the best to the best... usualy the top 5 %.... and i make absolutely no claims about my breeding, other than they lay great and make honey.

  19. #359
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Two serious questions Barry:

    Do brood breaks count as 'treatment' for you?
    Never have done brood breaks as a treatment. Have done some splits, but not a normal practice.

    How about small cell foundation and plastic comb?
    Call it a treatment, that's fine by me. I think that's a purest pov. I don't see it as a treatment in the sense we refer to treatments everywhere else on the forum.

    Also; do you agree with my gold standard: tf is reached only when bees are able to thrive completely unaided?

    Mike (UK)
    No. The way we are defining and discussing TF is in the sticky thread at the top. You're free to have your own definition however.
    Regards, Barry

  20. #360
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    Its extremely rude and arrogant to come on a site like this and say " I can do it so you havent paid your dues" when the answer is so much more complex. Barrys and other comments that I haven't worked that hard are just that.
    I think you're being overly critical and sensitive to my remarks. You're reading into them and coming to conclusions that are not intended by me. I've never said you haven't worked hard.

    What's even worse in my mind, is if you have the complete answer, one that "can be duplicated" and your sitting on it.
    It's not the complete answer, but if you want to believe it is, go ahead.
    Regards, Barry

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