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  1. #301
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    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Perhaps the fact is: you haven't understood the difference between a scientific hypothesis and a scientific fact?

    Mike (UK)
    You can cease hypothesizing about other members' knowledge, thank you.
    Regards, Barry

  2. #302
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
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    1,656

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    Mike Bispham,
    My local Bee Club recently sent round a link to the beekeeping part of your house-remodeling website. The club officers included a gushing note about your expert recommendations for reorganizing bee keeping along scientific lines.

    Hope you are beaming with pride that you are having a world-wide impact. You have a very receptive audience in California where (by survey) some 90% of the recent-cohort of "natural" beekeepers believe that everything is being done exactly wrong.

    I'm a little skeptical that some early-phase hobbyist should be directing world-wide beekeeping strategy, but the internet is a wonderous thing.
    Good to hear it! That's a fine Bee Club obviously, and you can be very proud of them. Mind I don't think there's much beekeeping advice on the site - its largely an exposition of the addictive nature of treating. In my signature box if you've missed it World. Signed hard copies a tenner (Sterling) + P&P.

    Some people (not me) might suspect this post might be at least in part a crafty sidestep of the critical points I just made in response to your own amateur genetics JW? You will be telling us what you think of those points won't you?

    Mike (UK & The World)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 01-06-2014 at 02:47 PM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  3. #303
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,999

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    I do hope this post isn't a crafty sidestep of the critical points I just made in response to your own amateur genetics JW? You will be telling us how I've got it wrong again, won't you?

    Mike (UK & The World)
    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    You can cease hypothesizing about other members' knowledge, thank you.
    ..
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  4. #304
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
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    1,656

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    This demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of Conservation of Energy. It is NOT the hill that has the energy, it is the car. The car on the hill has potential energy, and once the car is down lower on the hill, that reduced potential energy has been converted to heat via friction. Note that no changes have been made to "potential energy" of the hill, so the energy change did not come from the hill, it came from the car.
    Rader, you've been swotting up! I'm proud of you Man!

    I'd have thought it came from the change in relative position between the car and the centre of Earth's gravity. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that the Earth moved fractionally upward at the same time the car moved down, in order to maintain the same centre of gravity. I could be wrong.

    BTW, the loss of potential energy hasn't necessarily been lost as heat. You could brake with a generator and play loud music if you wanted to, converting it to sound, or charging a battery. You could rig up a machine hammer and do a bit of forging on the way down.

    And it isn't the hill that has the energy. Gravitational potential energy exists in the combination of mass (car) and (vertical) drop. It comes from the change in height (distance from the Earth's centre of gravity)

    All of which gets us a bit closer to the realities but misses the point Rader, just like the original distraction. There are facts, and there are hypotheses built (preferably) on facts. Its good to be able to tell the difference.

    Try this one: Rader can't levitate (please don't make me hedge it about with 'no magnets' or suchlike - just take it at face value).

    Question: Fact or mere hypothesis?

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 01-06-2014 at 02:56 PM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  5. #305
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    The point you make is just the way of the internet JWChestnut.

    Locally, I have been treated with a fair bit of suspicion by some just starting out, they'll buy their bees from me but I can see are ignoring any advice I may give them because they know better from the internet.

    It all changes though if they get away from the computer screen and come out with me and work some actual bees.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  6. #306
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,211

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Some people (not me) might suspect this post might be at least in part a crafty sidestep of the critical points I just made in response to your own amateur genetics JW?
    The last guy in England who could legitimately lay claim to being a bee geneticist died in 1996 after keeping bees nearly 100 years. To the best of my knowledge, there are only 3 people in the world today who could legitimately make such a claim. One of them is Russian, one is German, and one (maybe) is American. Don't pat yourself on the back so hard, you will knock yourself off the stool and everyone in the pub will stare.

    It all changes though if they get away from the computer screen and come out with me and work some actual bees.
    Best point made in this thread so far. Less talk and more pics of bees please.
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  7. #307
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    Canterbry, UK
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    1,656

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Not so sure about this. When I first went to SC and was "regressing" all my bees, I would notice cells that had been opened with partially chewed larva as well as untouched larva still alive. The same area had capped cells scattered around that were higher than the others. Worker brood, not drone. Discussing this with Ed and Dee, they felt these were recapped cells. I took photos. Will see if I can find them.
    Have you seen a lot of this (uncapped and recapped cells visible in your photos) in your bees Barry? Are you able to say whether, in your experience, there is any sort of correspondence between uncapping/recapping behaviour and general colony fitness in a non-treating context? Would you, in other words, recommend from your own experience selective propagation from bees exhibiting this trait to somebody like Charlie, who is struggling to locate any sort of resistance in his existing bees?

    Is looking for uncapping/recapping the best way to evaluate for the vsh trait?

    I haven't studied this, but in my bees, thus far, propensity to perform well seems to correspond to clean
    capped brood. I don't know if this means varroa hasn't built yet (allowing strong performance without the need to uncap/recap), or if the bees are controlling it another way, or if I'm just not looking hard and often enough to spot recapped brood. Where I'm seeing untidy brood I've generally assumed its due to poorly mated queens. I'd like to know more about this so that I can read my brood frames better.

    Having said that I'll be cautious of breeding in too much on this basis alone - I think a more rounded assay based on performance might be better. But I'm trying to put myself in the position of someone like Charlie.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 01-07-2014 at 03:03 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  8. #308
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,462

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Have you seen a lot of this (uncapped and recapped cells visible in your photos) in your bees Barry? Are you able to say whether, in your experience, there is any sort of correspondence between uncapping/recapping behaviour and general colony fitness in a non-treating context? Would you, in other words, recommend from your own experience selective propagation from bees exhibiting this trait to somebody like Charlie, who is struggling to locate any sort of resistance in his existing bees?
    The only time I've seen this dramatic sign of VSH was when I put all my bees on SC using wax foundation and the shakedown method. Both Dennis Murrell and myself did this about the same time and we both saw this behavior triggered. I never saw this again once I had my bees established. I'd still see the uncapping along with the chewing on larva, but not the recapping. Not saying my bees don't recap at all, but if they do, I'd have to look pretty hard to find it as I've never seen comb again like what I posted before. In my experience, I'd say this activity is a sign of colony weakness and strength. Weakness as a sign of a high mite population, strength that they are actively attacking the mites.
    Regards, Barry

  9. #309
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    You'll find nearly all interrupted mite families in cells with totally normal looking caps. It cannot be picked by eye.

    Mike how about post a pic of your untidy brood, some here can probably figure out what's happening.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  10. #310
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,211

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Arguments are one of our best tools - don't denigrate them.
    "The man who taught me the most in life was the one who argued with me the hardest and the longest. You don't learn anything from folks who agree with you."

    Source, H.D. Jones Sr. My Grandpa. He was the man who argued longest and hardest with me. We once argued for 10 years over a single issue. It gave us both something to look forward to and plenty of time to think of good answers why the other was wrong.

    Which is why I enjoy a good argument now and then. It would help if you would do more to provide one. The purpose of this thread is all about presenting different viewpoints effectively so readers can pop some popcorn, pull up a chair, and enjoy the show. After all, that is how Barry keeps the lights on.
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  11. #311
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Flora,IL
    Posts
    2,644

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Respectful argument, is called discussion. It can be done without snide comments or personal attacks. Some of the comments made to Radar, would fall under my perception of over the line. But thats between them, not me.
    Its clear that sometimes egos are bigger than the points trying to be made.

  12. #312
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
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    1,211

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Respectful argument, is called discussion.
    You mean we don't get to yell, wave our hands, and shake our fists? The quality of a good argument is definitely going downhill.



    Mike has his butt hanging in the wind on going treatment free. Lots of posters here who are razzing him haven't got that much gumption. What he is missing at this point is a proven track record of several years with no treatments and thriving colonies of bees. If he is difficult now, just think what he will be like 5 years from now when he is successfully keeping bees that resist mites.


    Mike, I seriously think you need a copy of this book. http://www.ebay.com/itm/130908740277
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  13. #313
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    May 2009
    Location
    Flora,IL
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    no reason to yell.. if your right.. being louder or snarky does not make you more right.

    Well if the 5 year TF department. I am going to call a 8 letter word that starts with bull.
    been trying for 3 years to buy some good TF queens... I get either mediocre queens with no Resistance, or "not available" a lot...... If some of the Tf braggers could reproduce there results or sell TF queens that remained TF with no excuses, they would be rich....
    I personaly bought over a dozen of glens queens without a complaint in the hopes...... Mike, I hope your right, and applaud your efforts. good luck... keep us posted.

  14. #314
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Why don't you tell your story of trying to get treatment free queens? I'd really be interested in the steps you have taken so far.

    Did you try Purvis when they were still selling? Have you checked with Carpenter Apiaries?
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  15. #315
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    Flora,IL
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    because it would piss off several on this site.

  16. #316
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    9,462

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Now, now, now, that excuse won't work!
    Regards, Barry

  17. #317
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
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    1,656

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    Actually guys the source of the energy was the method of getting it on the hill to begin with. Once place on the hill, it was stored, or potential energy.

    And i thought you were the professor Mike??
    That's a good reply. I was spending too much time trying to figure out what the energy was, rather than where it came from. Stored, or potential gravitational energy might be a better description.

    I don't know where you got the proff idea Charlie. I did 'O' Level Physics 40 odd years ago.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  18. #318
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    I am going to call a 8 letter word that starts with bull.
    I call you on it. Plain and simple. My bees are alive. The last time I treated for mites was in the winter of 2004/2005. Ask all the questions you want and I will do my best to show you how I did it. I have 4 colonies sitting on my front porch (they make excellent theft deterrents) that I use for honey production and to raise a few queens each year. One of those colonies has a queen from Carpenter Apiaries. The other three are from my stock that has survived untreated for 8 years. I have 2 more colonies located about 1/2 mile from here to produce drones for queen mating. The woods around here have numerous feral colonies derived from my bees over the last 8 years. I want plenty of bees in the woods because they buffer the effects of beekeepers with treated bees in the area.

    I have one colony already selected to raise queens from next spring. That colony is out on my land east of town about 7 miles from here. I want to use them for queens because they produced a decent crop in 2013 and they show no sign of mites in the brood. The only negative at this point is that the queen is 2 1/2 years old. I will have to get some use out of her this spring because queens don't usually last more than 3 seasons here.

    Now, give it a go. Tell your story. What steps have you taken and how much time do you have invested in going treatment free? What is working? What is not working? What queens have you tried? How do your mite checks look?
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  19. #319
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    Flora,IL
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    All in fun Mike, all in fun! Seriously, I don't know if your right or wrong, and would not argue against you. I hope your right. Just as much as i hoep the other side works..... I admire your commitment to searching and sincerly hope you find something.


    your tact on the other had might need a little polishing.
    Last edited by gmcharlie; 01-07-2014 at 11:46 AM.

  20. #320
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    May 2009
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    Flora,IL
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    I call you on it. Plain and simple. My bees are alive. The last time I treated for mites was in the winter of 2004/2005. Ask all the questions you want and I will do my best to show you how I did it. I have 4 colonies sitting on my front porch (they make excellent theft deterrents) that I use for honey production and to raise a few queens each year. One of those colonies has a queen from Carpenter Apiaries. The other three are from my stock that has survived untreated for 8 years. I have 2 more colonies located about 1/2 mile from here to produce drones for queen mating. The woods around here have numerous feral colonies derived from my bees over the last 8 years. I want plenty of bees in the woods because they buffer the effects of beekeepers with treated bees in the area.

    I have one colony already selected to raise queens from next spring. That colony is out on my land east of town about 7 miles from here. I want to use them for queens because they produced a decent crop in 2013 and they show no sign of mites in the brood. The only negative at this point is that the queen is 2 1/2 years old. I will have to get some use out of her this spring because queens don't usually last more than 3 seasons here.

    Now, give it a go. Tell your story. What steps have you taken and how much time do you have invested in going treatment free? What is working? What is not working? What queens have you tried? How do your mite checks look?

    So then your ready to sell your queens to the general public. I will take 20 as long as the price isn't stupid.

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