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Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

103K views 469 replies 49 participants last post by  mike bispham 
#1 ·
OK, so I've been treatment free for a while and its becoming apparent that something needs to change. Most of my hives get through the first year, but in the second year they die out. Example - I had six hives this year. Two of them were survivors from last year and four of them are new this year. This fall the two year old hives collapsed. One week they are full of bees and looking healthy a week or two later they are gone, with very few dead in the hive. (This happened in late October in Oregon where the temps have been freezing at night)

Both of the two year old hives were from "survivor" stock. One was a nuk purchased at Old Sol and the other was a split from a local hive that has been around for a number of years. I simply cannot get a hive into year three, no matter how what I do. The hives had excellent stores and I even fed pollen patties (from Mann Lake) just to help out. (first time I have done that)

I have no doubt the bees are leaving because of high mite loads but since I don't treat with chemicals I'm not sure what I can do. My hives are made up of a mixture of small cell boards and foundationless frames.

Open to suggestions as I'm very near going back to treating my bees with a miticide.
 
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#239 ·
Mike from what I see your just flat wrong on resistant bees. Your entitled to your thoughts, But here success are so rare and spotty to be almost impossible to believe.
I strongly think whats happening is a lot of TF people think brood breaks and requeening and splitting is success. IT IS NOT its hiding the problem. I can split like crazy and mask and then tout my success and sell TF queens. Thats what I am seeing. then they make all kinds of excuses when they fail......

TF would be 2-3 years, no breaks no extreme manipulations and hives still alive. Not seeing it. I hear and read a lot of claims, but even when it sounds great, it seems nothing is transferable.

When its found, if its found.. your looking at 200 a pop queens... and darn few would balk..... I have bought several 200 queens... and so far no joy.

As for what I am doing to raise Resistance, not much so far.. why?? because I have not found that Resistance yet. I had a cpl good hives in the last few years that showed promise. and they have all either perished, or don't produce honey. no point in working hard on what doesn't work.....
 
#241 ·
As for what I am doing to raise Resistance, not much so far.. why?? because I have not found that Resistance yet. I had a cpl good hives in the last few years that showed promise. and they have all either perished, or don't produce honey. no point in working hard on what doesn't work.....
Charlie,

If you don't take steps to raise resistance, you won't find any. Buying in new queens won't help.

So are you just here to tell us that, despite the growing evidence to the contrary, there is no such thing as tf beekeeping?

Mike (UK)
 
#243 ·
Mike,, "Show me the Money" show me evidence of TF guys who are not manipulating brood and make honey, and can sell that genetic stock. You may have some there.... I hear lots of stories.... I am on board......

I do breed my best hives. trying for something. Just so far without brood breaks, nothing is moving past 18 months. second year the hives are struggling so hard with mites, honey cannot be had. Last year was tough, total honey number were way down, but all the 2nd year hives that WERE boomers, made 0.......
 
#249 ·
Mike,, "Show me the Money" show me evidence of TF guys who are not manipulating brood and make honey, and can sell that genetic stock. You may have some there.... I hear lots of stories.... I am on board......
We just went through that on another thread. 10 or 15 names came up. Its not many, but as Deknow said, most don't bother hanging around here to tell us about it.

I do breed my best hives. trying for something. Just so far without brood breaks, nothing is moving past 18 months. second year the hives are struggling so hard with mites, honey cannot be had.
How do you evaluate 'best' - especially in regard to varroa while treating?

What do you do drone side?

Mike (UK)
 
#244 ·
I'm not even getting 8 months right now TF, and that's on hives started from nuc's just this past spring. Many already dead and still collapsing as I speak. We did have a terrible spring and summer with temps way too cold and excessive rains which translated into the worse honey production in this area in 25+ years. I'm fairly certain colony nutrition suffered as well causing stress and no doubt put the bees in a less than optimal state to deal with the mites.
 
#253 ·
These are extremes at the ends of a spectrum of approaches. It seems to suit some people to suggest there is no middle ground, but simple selective propagation using open mating as recommended by i.e. Manley, till recently the norm, is just such a middle-ground approach.

As recently observed, removal of the weakest (as well as not-too-concentrated selection of the best) maintains genetic diversity while achieving the promotion of desirable traits.

We're not talking high-end breeders breeding; we're talking traditional low-tech husbandry breeding.

Mike (UK)
 
#258 ·
Mike, I wasn't intending to point one over the other at all, just making sure I understood the 2 sides. I am no where involved enough to make a decison as to right or wrong, or pick a middle.

If you (or Radar) could find that thread, I would be interested to see if there are any I haven't looked at. Again. all I have tested or investigated, are useing something besides genetics or traits to keep hives alive past that 18 month mark.

As for my own. I am looking at hives that have Low mite counts in the fall, good clusters, and good honey builds. So far I have had several hives with nice low counts in fall, but next season is still a bust. I think that some hives do seem to outbreed the mites for a good while. but when winter comes the scales tip. so far no 2nd year hive has maintained that low count/ good production.

As for drones, not much to say, With queens not showing me anything (FYI that also includes a lot of Ferals) I havent spent a lot of effort on drones. add that to a large number of feral hives and there is not much point in drone control. I do only use the strongest hives near the queen yard.
 
#264 ·
I think that some hives do seem to outbreed the mites for a good while. but when winter comes the scales tip.
Have you tried looking for VSH? Recapped cells? perhaps you can get a tighter focus somehow.

From here, my first assumption would be that the ferals you have been getting haven't made much, if any, progress toward resistance - likely they are simply first or second year escapees. Can you try harder to locate some thriving resistant ferals?

As for drones, not much to say, With queens not showing me anything (FYI that also includes a lot of Ferals) I havent spent a lot of effort on drones. add that to a large number of feral hives and there is not much point in drone control. I do only use the strongest hives near the queen yard.
Tell us more about these ferals. How is it do you think that bees can survive in the wild near you but not in your yard? What is making the difference?

Mike (UK)
 
#247 ·
gm,
Evolution is always a process of dynamic compromise. Line breeding can emphasize traits (but in doing it throws away the steamer trunk of other adaptations). Large-scale diversity incorporates the kitchen sink (but reduces the number of specialists -- as seen in VSH behavior in subsequent generations).

The Dadant Starline came up in this thread -- its my understanding that the enormous effort to maintain this 4 line double crossed-hybrid was dropped when tracheal mites invaded the US in the 90's -- the inbred lines were (unsurprisingly) tracheal-susceptible.
 
#256 ·
I am going to try brood breaks this year for the first time. Been doing lots of research on this, many claim to have good results, many say otherwise. Honestly, if I could keep the mites at bay for 18 months before hive collapse I would be thrilled at this point. If timed properly, brood breaks do seem that they would hand the mites a setback, but is total mite numbers the only factor, what about the disease they spread? Are those diseases spread from bee to bee or does the bee only get them from the phoretic mite?
 
#257 ·
I am going to try brood breaks this year for the first time.
Just went through an interesting exchange on my local bee club regarding the scene in the documentary More than Honey about the commercial California uncapping scene. In case you haven't seen the doc, it is filmed as agit-prop emphasizing the disruption and chaos as millions of bees are blown out of hives on a mechanical conveyor belt. The scene is made deliberately provocative -- "bee's torn from their home, oh the inhumanity of it all".

I counter that "blown" bees are likely an extremely effective way of creating a full brood break onto new and sterilized comb. The practice resets the disease clock completely -- not just varroa, but all the other comb based diseases. It is a really effective "chemical-free" process.
 
#267 ·
This is another approach towards natural selection.

Quote.
We explored practical steps to implement a sustainable treatment against Varroa destructor which is adapted to common beekeeping situations, and applies conventional control but nevertheless exerts selection pressure towards increased mite tolerance in honey bees. This approach approximates conditions of natural selection in host-parasite systems, and is supported by evidence that the impact of V. destructor decreases when bee populations are overexploited by the parasites.

http://www.ibra.org.uk/articles/Exploring-good-strategy-varroa-treatment
 
#271 ·
>I think your wrong. Yes some antibiotics can wipe out good bacteria FOR A FEW DAYS.. not forever.

http://mbio.asm.org/content/3/6/e00377-12.full

This is one sentence from from deknow's summary on the study on his web site:
http://www.beeuntoothers.com/index....tibiotic-resistant-gut-microbes-in-honey-bees

"In summary, this work shows rather definitively that gut microbiotia is heritable (and very old), and that a line damaged by antibiotics does not return (at least in 25+ years) to its original population."
 
#276 ·
"In summary, this work shows rather definitively that gut microbiotia is heritable (and very old), and that a line damaged by antibiotics does not return (at least in 25+ years) to its original population."
If this is remotely accurate then we are all doomed to bees with terrible IBS ... It also appears that the solution is simple NZ bees would be more resistant to pathogens carried by Varroa.


Mike, most of the feral hives here are young hives. swarming seems to keep them going. This year is probably going to be the lowest in a long time for ferals. a really bad year for honey last year, and a sever winter will make wild losses very high.
Still looking for that link for the "restiant" producers....
 
#277 · (Edited)


One can clearly see that the bees are opening cells and recapping.



From the same hive.

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1603/AN11188

Changes in Infestation, Cell Cap Condition, and Reproductive Status of Varroa destructor (Mesostigmata: Varroidae) in Brood Exposed to Honey Bees with Varroa Sensitive Hygiene



Jeffrey W. Harris,[SUP]1[/SUP] Robert G. Danka and José D. Villa
USDA-ARS, Honey Bee Breeding, Genetics and Physiology Laboratory, 1157 Ben Hur Road, Baton Rouge, LA 70820


[SUP]1[/SUP] Corresponding author, e-mail: jeffrey.harris@ars.usda.gov.
ABSTRACT

Honey bees (Apis mellifera L.) bred for Varroa sensitive hygiene (VSH) selectively remove pupae infested with Varroa destructor Anderson & Trueman (Mesostigmata: Varroidae) from capped brood that is inserted into the nest. After 1 wk, remaining brood cells tend to have been uncapped and recapped, and remaining mites are mostly infertile. A primary goal of this experiment was to compare the reproductive status of mites that remained in recapped and normally capped cells after a 1-wk exposure to VSH and control colonies. Differences in distribution of fertile mites in normally capped brood cells between VSH bees and control bees may suggest that the stimulus for hygiene is related to reproduction by mites. Identification of stimuli triggering VSH behavior could be used to develop new bioassays for selective breeding of this important resistance mechanism. Combs of capped brood that were exposed to control bees had 10 times more pupae with fertile mites in normally capped brood as did VSH bees (6.7 and 0.7%, respectively). They also had 3 times more pupae with infertile mites in normally capped brood than did VSH bees (1.4 and 0.5%, respectively). Thus, VSH bees targeted fertile mites by a 3:1 ratio by either removing or uncapping and recapping their host pupae. Biased removal of mite-infested pupae with fertile mites suggested that stimuli triggering VSH behavior were enhanced by the presence of mite offspring within the brood cell. This bias for fertile mites is not seen during experiments of short 3-h duration. The differing results are discussed relative to a behavioral threshold model for hygienic behavior in honey bees in which different experimental protocols may reflect activities of honey bees having different sensitivities to pupae infested by fertile mites. In addition, mortality of mite offspring was significantly higher in recapped cells than in normally capped cells and contributed to decreased reproduction by the mites.
 
#278 · (Edited)
.....http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFile...00/441-Villegas--Uncapping of Pupal Cells.pdf

On Bee.L.
With regard to the question as to whether VSH bees will recap bald brood, I
asked one of the researchers who are investigating the phenomenon
intimately--Dr. Jeffrey Harris at the Baton Rouge Lab. His reply:

Hello Randy,



Yes. We have seen all pupal stages into lightly tanned body get recapped by
VSH bees. Purple-eyed pupae with white bodies are commonly recapped.

--
Randy Oliver
Grass Valley, CA
ScientificBeekeeping.com

Posting same time as Barry.
 
#280 ·
You may have a point that beneficial flora in the bee gut is a good thing. But what does it mean? with bees being so social, and drifters common, I would expect that any hive even if treated would soon have replenished the beneficial bacteria's.
Secondly were it such a huge issue, we could and would see dramatic results. As pointed out NZ bees (and other places) would be extremely healthy, and bees treated with things to eliminate EFB would be dieing off in record numbers.
This is not what we are seeing. not even close. In fact no trends seem to be popping out, specifically ones that show old hives outliving all others. or swarms from older hives solving all the problems. were that the case a few drifters with nectar could and would quickly replace the missing flora in our domestic hives.
If gut fauna were the answers then I would suspect feral hives to long outlive packages brought in. Not what I am seeing. Data shows its a time factor. how many mite cycles.... a hot potato if you will. constant splitting and brood breaks seem to relieve the symptoms...

I do understand in your area you seem to have something else working well for you. How may of your hives are going 2-3 years without brood breaks or requeening??
 
#283 ·
>I do understand in your area you seem to have something else working well for you. How may of your hives are going 2-3 years without brood breaks or requeening??

I have not requeened any hives at all for at least five years. Typically I only requeen the ones I see failing. I do some splits occasionally, but not for brood breaks and only because they would swarm otherwise and I'd like to build my numbers back up from when I was out of the country. I did buy a few packages a couple of years ago intending to requeen, but was busy traveling and speaking and did not get any requeened. The hives were marked so I could requeen them, so I know which hives they were. None of them survived the winter. The local ferals stock did fine.

>If gut fauna were the answers then I would suspect feral hives to long outlive packages brought in. Not what I am seeing.

But that is exactly what I am seeing.
 
#284 ·
Those Packages should have quickly had the same Flora in their guts as your local bees. a slight amount of drifting, coupled with nectar processing/food distibution of honeybees should have quickly spread those microbes around??


If I am not mistaken you sell some queens, are your customers getting the same results?
 
#293 ·
I can't argue for the bees, but in our own bodies we need to detox the bad before the good has significant benefit. If our gut is coated with GMO, highly processed flour, hydroginated oils, sugars including HFCS and white, then we can eat great food and we won't get the nutrition from it. This is what I have found in my family.
 
#286 ·
I work with the major electrical companies here. this fall I did 7 cutouts for them as they were trimming. (the call when they hit one) none had enough stores. and my average here was so low I couldn't have wintered anything without additional feeds. The largest one I did was around the size of 3 deeps and less than 50 lbs honey collected. that was around sept 15. they were they only ones that "may have made it" they others were effectively zero stores.
 
#289 ·
It might be worth bearing Seeley's figures in mind. From memory, his studies, pre-varroa, showed that only something like 20% of swarms make it through their first winter. That is, to see lots of failing ferals in the late months is the norm. Its just a part of Nature's great winnowing process, ensuring only the best get to make the new generations, cycle after cycle after cycle.

Its the early swarms that have the best chance. (Seeley again). Its likely (in my view) that these larger colonies drain most of the weaker through 'robbing'.

And, as you say, it was a poor year there. The upshot is, only the best will make it. I see that as a potential opportunity...

Mike (UK)
 
#287 ·
>Those Packages should have quickly had the same Flora in their guts as your local bees. a slight amount of drifting, coupled with nectar processing/food distibution of honeybees should have quickly spread those microbes around??

I'm just reporting what I observed. I do not know what the mechanisms involved are for sure. Yes, you would think they would spread, but sometimes other microbes have filled the niche and they don't take back over so easily.
 
#291 ·
Bees, in nature, will constantly reconverge on the normative genotype.
This statement is moderately incorrect as shown by the existence of numerous mutually incompatible wild species such as Apis Cerana, Apis Dorsata, and Apis Florea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_(genus)

Where it falls apart is when bees are subject to external selection pressure. When honeybees are carried into a northern climate, they rapidly adapt to overwintering in a cold environment. Any that don't adapt die. The same is happening with honeybees exposed to mites. The only glitch is that beekeepers who treat for mites are slowing down the process.

It helps to also keep this in perspective. We had American Chestnut trees here in the Eastern U.S. until about 100 years ago. They were wiped out by chestnut blight. If there had been any significant tolerance to chestnut blight in the species, you would have expected the population to rebound. Unfortunately, minimal tolerance of any kind has been found. Crossbreeding with chestnut trees from Asia that carry blight resistance genes will eventually get the species into recovery. This illustrates two important requirements in bee breeding. The first is that resistance mechanisms must be present in the population in order for selection to occur. The second is that resistance mechanisms can sometimes be brought in from a related species or even from a related population of the same species. We have access to resistance mechanisms in honeybees. Lets put them to use.
 
#294 ·
Mike Bispham,
My local Bee Club recently sent round a link to the beekeeping part of your house-remodeling website. The club officers included a gushing note about your expert recommendations for reorganizing bee keeping along scientific lines.

Hope you are beaming with pride that you are having a world-wide impact. You have a very receptive audience in California where (by survey) some 90% of the recent-cohort of "natural" beekeepers believe that everything is being done exactly wrong.

I'm a little skeptical that some early-phase hobbyist should be directing world-wide beekeeping strategy, but the internet is a wonderous thing.
 
#302 · (Edited)
Good to hear it! That's a fine Bee Club obviously, and you can be very proud of them. Mind I don't think there's much beekeeping advice on the site - its largely an exposition of the addictive nature of treating. In my signature box if you've missed it World. Signed hard copies a tenner (Sterling) + P&P.

Some people (not me) might suspect this post might be at least in part a crafty sidestep of the critical points I just made in response to your own amateur genetics JW? You will be telling us what you think of those points won't you?

Mike (UK & The World)
 
#295 ·
>If I am not mistaken you sell some queens, are your customers getting the same results?

I haven't sold any lately, I've been out of the country for several years and then traveling and speaking and now I'm back home working full time and speaking on weekends. Hopefully I'll get back to queen rearing this spring. Even one speaking engagement throws a wrench into the queen rearing rhythm. But when I was selling queens people were reporting good survival. But I think a lot of them were doing what I'm doing (small cell etc.) which may contribute just as much to their survival.
 
#300 ·
Barry (and Mike) i'll give you that comb in the pic does appear like the recapped cells are more pronounced, and of course, we have all seen similar to that in our own hives.

But if you are going to be looking for recapped cells by looking for that, you are going to miss the great majority of them which appear no different to all the other cells. You have to open the cells and check for evidence a mite was there to really know, this is done under a low power microscope.
 
#305 ·
The point you make is just the way of the internet JWChestnut.

Locally, I have been treated with a fair bit of suspicion by some just starting out, they'll buy their bees from me but I can see are ignoring any advice I may give them because they know better from the internet.

It all changes though if they get away from the computer screen and come out with me and work some actual bees.
 
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