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  1. #461
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Belfast, Ireland
    Posts
    393

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    I think a lot of the more sorted folks are also using frozen brood tests. Prof Ratneiks at Sussex lays out the basis on a slide
    It was demonstrated a while back that general hygienic behaviour as demonstrated by the frozen brood test is unrelated to VSH.

    This quote is from Jerry Bromenshenk:

    I invented the liquid nitrogen freeze method while working on a project for
    EPA. I found that neither the pin prick nor Steve Tabor's - cut and
    freeze in freezer- produced consistent results. The problem is that physical
    damage (pricking, cutting out bits of comb) can induce a repair behavior.
    Hygenic behavior is supposedly controlled by two genes, each with a bit
    different behavior. Also, removal of paper is probably not a good test -
    its just part of a two step process.

    As per area of brood - the larger the area you kill, the more certain you
    will be to see bees take action - that's again not simply hygienic
    behavior, but a response to a damage 'crisis'.

    What most have forgotten - our data showed that several small patches over
    more than on brood frame provided the most reliable test.
    Jeff Harris noted that VSH bees do not uncap freeze killed brood any better than run of the mill bees.

  2. #462
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,408

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    >>Breeding has been 'scientific' for 2 or 3 hundred years.
    >A few days ago you said it was 'tens of thousands of years'.
    >I advocate traditional husbandry - as practiced for tens of thousands of years, the foundation of agriculture. As used, amost alone, to keep stock fit and productive right up to the post-war era.

    These are two different statments. "traditional husbandry" is breeding from the best. "Scientific breeding" is breeding for very specific traits that can be tested for and taking specific measurements of traits. "traditional husbandry" has existed as long as people have been breeding anything.

    Somewhere along that line that degenerated into carefully measuring specific traits and maintaining specific lines, which almost alwasy turns out to be a very bad idea that results in cows that can't calf, horses that can't process potassium, dogs that are deaf etc.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  3. #463
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,197

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Somewhere along that line that degenerated into carefully measuring specific traits and maintaining specific lines, which almost always turns out to be a very bad idea that results in cows that can't calf, horses that can't process potassium, dogs that are deaf etc.
    Most of the problem gets down to breeding for visual appeal. http://dogbehaviorscience.wordpress....d-improvement/

    Breeding for extreme yellow bees is an example of breeding for visual appeal regardless of other traits.

    The key to all breeding work is to remember that any time you enhance one trait, you are by necessity removing genes from the population. In time, you may find that genes that were bred out were more desirable than the genes that were retained.

    VSH is a clear example where Harbo found that highly VSH bees removed too much brood which led them to being useless for producing honey.
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  4. #464
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Belfast, Ireland
    Posts
    393

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post

    VSH is a clear example where Harbo found that highly VSH bees removed too much brood which led them to being useless for producing honey.
    yep. Strange as it seems bees can be too hygienic.

  5. #465
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Mirabel, Québec, Canada
    Posts
    417

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by jonathan View Post
    yep. Strange as it seems bees can be too hygienic.
    Which is something, from what I hear, he managed to eventually breed out, and was why 100% VSH queens were only recomended as breeders, while 50% VSH was for regular usage.

  6. #466
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    West Bath, Maine, United States
    Posts
    1,070

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    But oh what a poison pill, brood break/ varroa killer, treatment, a frame of 100% VSH brood would be to keep around. You would have to keep adding emerging brood to keep the donor hive going.
    4 yrs, Peak 14, back to zip, T lite; godfather to brother's 3.

  7. #467
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,503

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    Huh.

    A few days ago you said it was 'tens of thousands of years'.

    I wonder what prompted the revision ....

    Husbandry (founded on selective propagation) has been around for thousands of years. Its the foundation of agriculture.

    Science (in the modern sense, critically including 'scientific method') was only developed in the 16th and 17th Centures.

    Selective husbandry and science (in the modern sense) are two entirely different things.

    Science (and the scientific method) was quickly bought to bear on husbandry.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by Barry; 01-14-2014 at 06:35 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  8. #468
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,503

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    These are two different statments. "traditional husbandry" is breeding from the best. "Scientific breeding" is breeding for very specific traits that can be tested for and taking specific measurements of traits.
    It can be. The phrase isn't actually very precise at all. There is nothing 'unscientific' about careful results-led low-tech selective breeding. As I say, things don't have to cutting-edge to be scientific. You can do scientific experiments in your bathroom, and scientific cooking on a campfire. Science is an approach to discovery, not a set of high tech gear.

    To be 'scientific' is to apply the scientific method. That's all. That can be drawn very tightly, or fairly loosely - with commensurate probabilisitic results (very tightly drawn = more likely to be correct results).

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    "traditional husbandry" has existed as long as people have been breeding anything. [MB]

    Somewhere along that line that degenerated into carefully measuring specific traits and maintaining specific lines, which almost alwasy turns out to be a very bad idea that results in cows that can't calf, horses that can't process potassium, dogs that are deaf etc.
    Sometimes. Broadly I agree with you, but just because lots of people use a good method to do silly things doesn't make the method bad. You can use a scientific approach to do good stuff too.

    What you can't do is keep organic lifeforms healthy without having them constanly adapting to their constantly-evolving/new predators. Unless you medicate and call that 'health' But... you can only do that in closed populations...

    So you have to do selective breeding (or suffer natural losses). Then you have a choice. Do that unscientifically (by intuition, guesswork, tossing a coin, reading goats' entrails...?) ... or scientifically - find 'best' through sound evaluation procedures and propagate from them mostly/cull the other end.

    I suppose 'low-tech scientific approach' is a reasonable way to describe this, to distinguish it from the sort of 'high-tech precision scientific breeding' that you think of.

    That's how I see it anyway.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 01-14-2014 at 04:31 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  9. #469
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,503

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion_power View Post
    VSH is a clear example where Harbo found that highly VSH bees removed too much brood which led them to being useless for producing honey.
    Is that 'highly' a reference to the genetic make up of a patriline, or the proportion of workers (of all patrilines) in a hive?

    That's unlikely to be a problem for us, given multiple open matings. If we get massive control of our breeding pools maybe something to watch out for.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  10. #470
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,503

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Palmer View Post
    No Mike, not being snippy. Just surprised, that's all.
    In that case I was being oversensitive Michael, apologies.

    BTW, how did your UK jaunt go last year? Were the brits receptive on the whole?

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

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