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  1. #61
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Doers anyone here believe that a yard would survive indefinitely if all you did was treat it?
    Pretty much, yes.

    Before mites, there were abandoned apiaries that lasted till the equipment rotted away. Now, long as I control mites, my hives have virtually 100% survival regardless of the many other mistakes I make. Around these parts anyway, if a yard was treated but received no other management it would last.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #62
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    Mar 2011
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    Otero County, New Mexico, USA
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    That's just leaving bees alone to die. Where is the science in that?
    NM desert/mountain beekeeper - Black Mesa Honeybees.

  3. #63

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    This is exactly what I mean by intellectual dishonesty.
    The Bond method of selection….live and let die. Countless new beekeepers try this with package bees…and in this ‘project’ they actually went so far as to go to a reputable queen supplier. As I clearly pointed out, for anyone who bothers to read, testing the Bond method was not the purpose of the trial but an unintended consequence.
    Sorry if this is challenging for you.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  4. #64

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul McCarty View Post
    That's just leaving bees alone to die. Where is the science in that?
    If you read the study it would make more sense. They weren't testing for tf. They were trying to limit the variables, as is done in good science, and treatments and hive manipulations would have added variables. So they did neither.
    Which is all beyond the point.
    The point is that various forms of tf beekeeping have been tested...
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  5. #65
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    You're referring to the 'Stationary Hive Project'.

    No, it wasn't a 'Bond' or TF type experiment.

    They never published the pathogen part of the experiment though.

  6. #66
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    They never published the pathogen part of the experiment though.
    Which implies you have some special knowledge the rest of us don't?

    Going to share it, or just hint at it?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    1,252

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    The Bond method of selection….live and let die. Countless new beekeepers try this with package bees…and in this ‘project’ they actually went so far as to go to a reputable queen supplier. As I clearly pointed out, for anyone who bothers to read, testing the Bond method was not the purpose of the trial but an unintended consequence.
    Sorry if this is challenging for you.
    So your understanding of the Bond method is that Bond beekeepers make no increase? Really?

    The purpose f the the study was to measure the effects of locality on colony mortality. It did nothing to trial treatment-free beekeeping against conventional beekeeping, because there was no actual "beekeeping" involved. Why is this so hard for you to grasp?

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Ray I don't really think you've fully understood all that's been said, or at least taken a very narrow view of it.

    Why so much aggression?

    Also, the results of a study or field trial are the results. Intellectual honesty is accepting that, and if it conflicts with ones own beliefs, examine ones beliefs.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  9. #69
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    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul McCarty View Post
    That's just leaving bees alone to die. Where is the science in that?
    Paul, the study was trying to determine mortality due to location. They set up yards around the country and tried to determine what factors contributed to different rates of colony demise. They measured various things, like pollen and comb contamination, and kept records of supercedure, etc.. Very interesting study, because it does give credence to the idea that local adaptation is important, but it had nothing to do with comparing tf with conventional beekeeping. And nothing to do with Bond beekeeping.

  10. #70
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Which implies you have some special knowledge the rest of us don't?

    Going to share it, or just hint at it?
    OT:

    Here's the first part of their report.

    http://www.beeccdcap.uga.edu/documen...umnDec2012.pdf

    I have mentioned this before in TF related threads as a good reason for starting out with known resistant stock or using a methodology that avoids complete losses.

  11. #71
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    Jul 2010
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    So what is it that they did not put in that report, that you know about?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    OT:

    I was interested to see their analysis of viruses in untreated colonies.

  13. #73

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    So your understanding of the Bond method is that Bond beekeepers make no increase? Really?
    Stay with me on this one. Bond....James Bond....Live and let die.....does any of that ring a bell with you?
    This is the whole point of the 'Bond' method.
    I know this is causing you difficulty. I know you want to ague this...in a never ending, tail chasing, useless monologue. You've stated your opinion and I have mine. What else is to be said?
    Let's see if you can let go....I know I can.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  14. #74

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    Why so much aggression?
    Intellectual honesty
    OT...I've chosen to let it go.
    Dishonesty is a term most of us use with great caution. We’ve come to appreciate the substance of such an accusation.
    Those who throw the term around cavalierly, most likely, have had the term used against them regularly and have lost recognition of its implication.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
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    1,197

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    I read that report on the CAP study. What is in it is nowhere near as significant as what was not in it. The conclusions were obvious. Site affects survival. They did not figure out why site affects survival. Total pesticide exposure affects supersedure rate at a minor level.

    I submit that they will find that total varroa load correlates very strongly with both supersedure rate and total survival rate.

    What was missing? There was no effort to control varroa whether by using varroa tolerant genetics or by chemical means. Without some effort at varroa control, varroa effects overwhelm all other events in the colony by the second year. Varroa load increases as brood rearing interval increases therefore warmer climate areas see increased losses. Varroa load affects wintering ability, therefore cold climate regions see increased losses "in the winter".
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  16. #76
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    Dec 2012
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    Stay with me on this one. Bond....James Bond....Live and let die.....does any of that ring a bell with you?
    This is the whole point of the 'Bond' method.
    I know this is causing you difficulty. I know you want to ague this...in a never ending, tail chasing, useless monologue. You've stated your opinion and I have mine. What else is to be said?
    Let's see if you can let go....I know I can.
    I'm just trying to understand why you believe that Bond beekeepers make no increase. Is it your belief that Bond beekeepers buy in a bunch of colonies, let them die, then buy in more, until, by sheer good fortune, one of them survives without treatment? Really?

    The best example of Bond beekeeping that I'm aware of is the BeeWeaver breeding program. They did not manage their colonies in the manner you suggest. Can you give any examples of Bond beekeepers who did as you claim? All the accounts I've read indicate that they breed from their best hives each year. This did not happen at all in the study you claim is a good trial of Bond beekeeping. They didn't breed from any of their colonies. They bought standard packages and queened them with queens as much alike as they could manage. This is not at all what a treatment free beekeeper would do. Even a beginner like me has acquired locally adapted nucs, caught swarms, bought in BeeWeaver stock, etc.

    I honestly cannot figure out how you are convincing yourself that the study you've cited has anything to do with beekeeping, let alone treatment-free beekeeping.

  17. #77

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    I honestly cannot figure out how you are convincing yourself that the study you've cited has anything to do with beekeeping, let alone treatment-free beekeeping.
    I've expressed my opinion and you have yours.
    If you are simply looking for an endless argument...then it makes sense.
    Otherwise....there isn't anything else to say.
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  18. #78
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    Feb 2010
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    The best example of 'Bond' bees are the actual Bond hives in Gotland, Sweden.

    It's an experiment that's still running today.

  19. #79
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Colorado Springs, CO United States
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    358

    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Quote Originally Posted by whalers View Post
    Thanks JBJ, excuse my ignorance please but what is "IPM approach"? Also, what would you suggest as a way to reduce mite loads in Aug/Sept. I open to most anything and its becoming obvious that this is a part of my management that needs to improve.
    You can read up on IPM approach/techniques, but my favorite is running screened bottom boards with an oil tray underneath, which mine also have a wooden bottom under the tray. The tray makes an outing at the lake for the mites and SHB. Don't give up on treatment free if that is what you want to pursue, there is not guarantee your bees would be alive if you had treated them. As you stated, focus more on your management techniques, take notes if needed, "looked healthy" is a guess unless you are in the hives semi-regularly, or watching the entrance often, and definetly run nucs and make splits. Out of curiousity, how large were the hives before they perished?

  20. #80
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Otero County, New Mexico, USA
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    Default Re: Something needs to change - looking for suggestions

    Making increase is IMPERATIVE with TF styles. That is how it works. You must always have some in reserve for the next season. Any test that does not incorporate this is not a truly scientific test of this method.

    Now, ultimately, this method is not very well suited to large operations, since it takes more manipulations and hive time - so comparisons really are not fair for either..
    NM desert/mountain beekeeper - Black Mesa Honeybees.

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