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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAK View Post
    Ian, Your winter would be stress free.

    My ancestors did the same. Shipped package bees from Georgia into Siberia and killed them off in the fall.
    Georgia being a country which borders Russia, right?
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominic View Post
    This is the last thing I would want to see happen. Migratory beekeeping is a horrible practice, bee health-wise. The less the bees move, the healthier they are. The less borders they cross, the happier I am.
    But only after they were brought across the Atlantic hundreds of years ago, right?

    So many of these critisisms of those who kill their bees, or would do so, at the end of the beekeeping season are so selfcentered. How many colonies survive Manitoba Winters? I don't think y'all know the whole story. I know I don't. But I am not going to condemn someone for doing what is economically best for them.

    I don't care for the idea of killing bees. But I can afford to have that mindset, because most of my bees survive where they Winter. Others may not.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  3. #63
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    Jan 2003
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Dominic , aren't you getting tired of shaking your finger at me?

  4. #64
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    Jun 2011
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    Nesbitt,Manitoba,Canada
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    29

    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Its the second possibility I mentioned that keeps migratory beekeepers from lobbing heavily to open the boarder. Do you think the Almond growers would welcome another half million Canadian hives?[/QUOTE]

    Roles reversed = Would you really welcome a half million hives showing up on your doorstep? I know I wouldn't

    And as for the package bee operation suited to the prairies - have you done the math? It does not make any financial sense to operate this way. Overwintering is a much cheaper alternative

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
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    Mirabel, Québec, Canada
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    423

    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    Dominic: You will probably be happy to know that most of these operations now simply sell fall shake out bees to southern operations. I am surprised at the amount of bee anthropomorphication expressed here. Are you involved in agriculture?
    Yes, I am involved in agriculture, and fail to see any comparable situations. Livestock sent to the slaughterhouse at least have the dignity of having a meaning to their death: feeding people.

    And whether one cares for it or not, one has to account for anthropomorphism. A bunch of these lobbies are currently our allies, fighting against the people responsible for bee declines. Beekeeping benefits from significant public support, because of the general public's vision of how we operate in harmony with nature and sell "100% natural honey". Unethical beekeeping, the likes of an annual mass extermination, is the kind of thing that will not only get all of these environemental groups to stop working with us, but will get them to work against us.

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post
    But only after they were brought across the Atlantic hundreds of years ago, right?

    So many of these critisisms of those who kill their bees, or would do so, at the end of the beekeeping season are so selfcentered. How many colonies survive Manitoba Winters? I don't think y'all know the whole story. I know I don't. But I am not going to condemn someone for doing what is economically best for them.

    I don't care for the idea of killing bees. But I can afford to have that mindset, because most of my bees survive where they Winter. Others may not.
    I don't live in California or Hawaii or some other sunny beach State. We have harsh winters in Québec too, and we overwinter our hives. And not just on our southern border, either. If it can be done here, it can certainly be done over there too. The whole of Canadian beekeeping should not be jeopardized just so one province's can be lazy and kill their bees off every year.

  6. #66
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    You lambaste migratory beekeeping yet you have benefited from migratory beekeeping. Were it not for migratory beekeeping you would not have bees.
    Mark Berninghausen #youmatter

  7. #67
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    3,015

    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominic View Post


    I don't live in California or Hawaii or some other sunny beach State. We have harsh winters in Québec too, and we overwinter our hives. And not just on our southern border, either. If it can be done here, it can certainly be done over there too. The whole of Canadian beekeeping should not be jeopardized just so one province's can be lazy and kill their bees off every year.
    Are we talking about Insects here? Do they spray for mosquitoes in Quebec? And you think there should be laws past to prevent fall shakeouts in Manitoba? How does it hurt the people of Quebec?

    Do I sense what is really going on here.... a vast difference in the people of Eastern Canada and the Prairie Provinces? At least a big attitudnal difference....

    I can not imagine any of my neighbors giving a hoot if I shook out all my bees this winter..... perhaps if I lived closed to some urban center..... NYC, Philly, LA... etc - who knows..
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  8. #68
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    Jan 2011
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    Athens, OH
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    2,698

    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by HiveOnTheHill View Post
    have you done the math? It does not make any financial sense to operate this way.
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...eholder+method

    Of course, this depends on a cheap, early supply of packages.
    Politics is the entertainment branch of industry. -Frank Zappa

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    First of all, I would challenge the assumption that they don't already have exactly the same Honeybee health issues in Canada that we have here in the U.S. .

    Quite frankly, after the massive losses in some of the Canadian provinces that have made the headlines, I wouldn't attribute the majority of those high loss levels to pesticide kills. They already have a serious Honeybee health problem in Canada in my opinion. So, the closed border is more about protectionism than keeping out disease.

    What I've referred to before is the 'missing leg' in the Honeybee pollinator 'relay'.

    If both U.S. and Canadian migratory pollinators had to ability move Honeybees all the way up north into the provinces, and then all the way down south in the states, productivity would increase well into the double digits.

    Essentially, it would be like a never ending flow.

    No more dearths for most of the year.

    Unfortunately, closed borders have a way of keeping managed pollinators from following nectar/pollen flows.

  10. #70
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    May 2009
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    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    3,015

    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Essentially, it would be like a never ending flow.

    No more dearths for most of the year.

    Unfortunately, closed borders have a way of keeping managed pollinators from following nectar/pollen flows.
    A rather well known Alberta beekeeper once said that he doubted that 1/10th of the available honey in the prairie Provinces gets harvested. I wonder if that is true.

    If they come south guess we can go North.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  11. #71
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    oh and we would flow south too! Package bees would restock our yards, make the honey and they would all go south to California to cash in on the Almond pollination as an end of year bonus.

    How many migratory beekeepers would follow their bees up here into Canada? I doubt very many, and I would also assume virtually none of their workers would get across the boarder either. So, I would then see the hives getting contracted out to Canadian beekeepers to manage. Crop sharing I presume. Who would end up on the right side of that ledger?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  12. #72
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Another interesting point made by talking to a neighbouring beekeeper here today.

    Those 100 000 or so packages that would of been sold to Canada, is 100 000 worth of bee hives not available to the Almond flow. Becasue as the deal would of stated, package bees across but not back. As far as we can see from up here, you US guys are not quite self sufficient enough to cover your California pollination needs. Take a couple hundred thousand packages out of the US "bee herd" equation and pollination brokers are going to have to search farther afield to replace them.

    The sense we get from up here is that package operators and pollination brokers took a good sigh of relief with the continued ban on honeybee movement across the boarder
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  13. #73
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Uh, Ian...

    By the time pollination has finished going from California to Washington, there's more than enough migratory pallets to sell to migratory pollinators on the Canadian side of the border.

    How can I put it...

    The splits keep splitting.

    When the migratory season is over in Canada, I'm sure that you can find someone on the U.S. side to take them off of your hands.

    I think that there might be a few U.S. and Canadian beekeepers that don't need to take their shoes and socks off to understand how the math works out.

    As it stands, there's no access to the flow north of the border, and all of those truckloads of migratory pallets have no choice but to be turned into cash for any increases made, right here in the U.S. .

    That closed border is lost productivity and income for all.

    It's lose-lose.

  14. #74
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    your missing the circular aspect of it, WCL ( whoever you are )

    and Im referring to strictly to package bees crossing the boarder, bees on comb is more than forever away
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  15. #75
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    May 2009
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    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post

    That closed border is lost productivity and income for all.

    It's lose-lose.
    Yup... that is what I see. Psuedo-Political Economics. But I am not sure it's the U.S. contributing to keeping the border closed...... more like an internal Canadian thing.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  16. #76
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    I do know that Canadian beekeepers have filed suit in their federal court over the U.S. package issue.

    Quite frankly, after the big hit beekeepers in Manitoba and Ontario have taken recently, someone is going to come to the revelation that the 'bio-security' issue is peripheral to the potential collapse of beekeeping in Canada.

    Packages from New Zealand, Australia, and Chile?

    That's not going to fix the underlying problem.

  17. #77
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    Jan 2003
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    you have no idea what your talking about WLC , not a clue
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  18. #78
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Really now?

    Who made you a 'Minister'?

    45% and 36% losses?

    That's a big hit in Canada.

  19. #79
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    Jan 2003
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Yes we had a terrible spring, AND highlights the need for available and affordable replacement stock.

    your point???
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  20. #80
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    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    I bought in replacement stock from NZ, my neighbour decided to forfit his honey crop this year and split his hives all summer.

    He is living on bread and butter this winter. Hard to live off nothing

    It was two and a half weeks of timely terrible spring weather that killed off our bee stock this past year. Nobody escaped it
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

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