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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    6,335

    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    > Resistance genetics.

    It is currently legal to import US queens into Canada. Why would you need to import packages simply to get US "resistance genetics" when importing queens is already legal?

    The push to import US packages to Canada is from an economic impetus, not a genetic diversity issue.

    .
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 11-05-2013 at 06:45 PM.
    Graham
    --- Practical reality trumps philosophy!

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    I think that $250 a package is a good reason to import U.S. packages.
    Queens can carry all kinds of pathogens anyways. So, what's the issue?

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Roy, Wa
    Posts
    1,677

    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    I'm planning to send some of my Northern VSH queens to Elmendorf AFB in Alaska next spring for testing . I'd be interested in sending some to Canada to overwinter and get some reports on their performance. PM me if you are interested. I am located in Western Washington State.

    Not trying to drum up business here. I'm too small to ship for sales. Still a local producer. I'm more interested in research and development at this point and would like to perhaps do some trading with someone else doing research. The colder and harsher your climate the better

    I have mainly survivor high performing ferrell stock collect from a wilderness area and Carniolan VSH hybrids from the Glenn II line.

    This is the Mt. Rainier ferrell strain. Black or black striped daughters:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-VW_PMRHCs

    Glenn Hybrids are Chocolate striped. All my bees are dark.
    Last edited by Lauri; 11-05-2013 at 07:23 PM.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    The best reason for opening the U.S. Canadian border both ways isn't just for trading bees.
    It would be beneficial to migratory U.S. beekeepers who could take advantage of the very long summer days in the northern part of the provinces, and Canadian beekeepers would benefit by overwintering their bees in the south.

    Unfortunately, it's a closed shop as it seems.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    6,221

    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominic View Post
    Are you talking about the old practice of killing off all of your bees when winter comes? Aside from the big ethical issue
    This practice is perfectly suited for the Prairies. It is why it was so widely practiced beforehand.
    Bring the bees up, Oxalic acid treatment before hiving. Feed them a squirt of Fumagillin and that is it for hive treatments, period. Feed them a couple gallons of syrup in the spring, and thats all the feed you have to provide for them. Kill them off in the fall, spend the winter scraping and preparing the boxes for next year. Store them in cold storage to help kill off pest presence and virus.
    Fresh queens every year which would build a fantastic summer time population. An exact measured amount of bees poured into each hive which eliminates all the spring time swarm control work.

    So many advantages in running a package bee operation. It truely was developed for the Northern States and the Canadian Prairies.

    So the question is asked, Should the rest of Canada hold the Prairie beekeepers hostage because it a package operation doesn't suit their operation and practice?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany
    Posts
    831

    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    This practice is perfectly suited for the Prairies. It is why it was so widely practiced beforehand.
    Bring the bees up, Oxalic acid treatment before hiving. Feed them a squirt of Fumagillin and that is it for hive treatments, period. Feed them a couple gallons of syrup in the spring, and thats all the feed you have to provide for them. Kill them off in the fall, spend the winter scraping and preparing the boxes for next year. Store them in cold storage to help kill off pest presence and virus.
    Fresh queens every year which would build a fantastic summer time population. An exact measured amount of bees poured into each hive which eliminates all the spring time swarm control work.

    So many advantages in running a package bee operation. It truely was developed for the Northern States and the Canadian Prairies.

    So the question is asked, Should the rest of Canada hold the Prairie beekeepers hostage because it a package operation doesn't suit their operation and practice?
    That is the worst thing I ever heard in my whole life. This are not the words from a beekeeper, it's from a greedy bee killer.
    We have many bee institutes and people work hard to keep the little girls healthy and alive. And now this on a north america forum, " let them work hard, all there live and at the end ... kill them. I thought, the time with keeping slaves are long gone.
    Just my opinion
    Last edited by Barry; 11-06-2013 at 07:21 AM. Reason: spelling

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Sveg, Sweden
    Posts
    7

    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    I'm a little surprised at how clueless some people seem. Closing the borders is a quite logical thing to do if you want to limit the spread of pests, heck we even have zones here that nobody imports from as they have had varroa, because it's a good practice. Throwing loads of varroa packages all over the country won't exactly help stopping those little mites...
    Last edited by Barry; 11-06-2013 at 06:47 AM. Reason: language

  8. #48
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    9,774

    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axtmann View Post
    That is the worst thing I ever heard in my whole life. This are not the words from a beekeeper, it's from a greedy bee killer.
    It is not in my game plan but in defense, have you ever pinched a queen, split a hive, culled drones or shaked out a drone laying hive? None of these are the bees choice. Beekeeping is farming and farming is about raising animals for your own needs not the animals. Usually it results in slaughter. All the bees that exist in the fall will be dead by spring anyway. How is it any different than requeening every spring? They do that in Germany don't they?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    6,221

    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axtmann View Post
    That is the worst thing I ever heard in my whole life. This are not the words from a beekeeper, it's from a greedy bee killer.
    The North American package bee industry was developed exactly for this purpose. As it was said, by bringing the bees up to we are able to catch the abundance of nectar but cant feasibly overwinter the hives through the winter. Now times have changed and new wintering techniques have been developed so I doubt there will ever be a complete fall shake out but I could see a hybrid version.

    Another possibility,
    if the boarder does open, I could stock my yards to the gills with package bees, and ship them all off to California in the fall to catch the Almond flow. Shake/sell them all out in California and bring back empty boxes. The pollination fees would just be a nice fall time bonus and would buy my bees for the following year.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  10. #50
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
    Posts
    3,052

    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post

    Another possibility,
    if the boarder does open, I could stock my yards to the gills with package bees, and ship them all off to California in the fall to catch the Almond flow. Shake/sell them all out in California and bring back empty boxes. The pollination fees would just be a nice fall time bonus and would buy my bees for the following year.
    Ian... you seem to have really thought this out. I suspect it will never happen, though. Just too many people on "Both" sides of the border opposed to it.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    6,221

    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    of course I have thought this out. This is the discussion up here.

    I ask you hpm08161947, when change barrels down on you regardless if the change was welcomed, and everything you know changes, what do you do? Sit there and complain about the way it was, or do you start making changes to embrace the opportunity?

    Its the second possibility I mentioned that keeps migratory beekeepers from lobbing heavily to open the boarder. Do you think the Almond growers would welcome another half million Canadian hives?
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  12. #52
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
    Posts
    3,052

    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Its the second possibility I mentioned that keeps migratory beekeepers from lobbing heavily to open the boarder. Do you think the Almond growers would welcome another half million Canadian hives?
    I am sure the Almond growers would welcome the Canadian bees. Just as I am sure the Almond pollinators would not.

    All in all.... blocking borders does not fit my model of free enterprise, particularly when there appears to be no significant reason to do so.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  13. #53
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Manitoba Canada
    Posts
    6,221

    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    particularly when there appears to be no significant reason to do so.
    that is one side of the argument up here, and in many ways, they are correct

    Africanized bees have not been able to adapt to colder climates. and we all know Canada is a colder climate. Our bees will make cluster pretty much every month of the year! Small hive beetle also seems not to have taken foot hold across the line. Producers find beetles pretty much every spring ( as Im told ) dead in the hives. They fly across the boarder from migratory operations.
    In regards to chemical resistant varroa and antibiotic resistant AFB, yes, this is a significant factor.
    Ian Steppler >> Canadian Beekeeper's Blog
    www.stepplerfarms.com

  14. #54
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
    Posts
    3,052

    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    In regards to chemical resistant varroa and antibiotic resistant AFB, yes, this is a significant factor.
    If this is a problem in the States... I am not familiar with it. It is probably something like the "Mad Cow" syndrome.........
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  15. #55
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Mirabel, Québec, Canada
    Posts
    423

    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Resistance genetics.

    Aussie bees have never seen a Varroa.

    As for genetic pollution, if you mean AHB in southern US bees, it isn't the case according to a recent study.

    I think that calling US stock 'pollution' is a bit over the top.

    They're uniquely US Honeybees according to what I'm reading in Honeybee genetics research.
    I call unadapted genetics pollution, regardless of how well it performs in the area where it is adapted. This is not to say that american bees are poor, I just find it ridiculous to use bees adapted to Californian weather to build up a stock that will live in Canadian climate, unless it's to incorporate specific traits into local stocks. Every locale should breed bees adapted to its own area, and imports should only serve as short-term boosts in colony/apiary strength, their queens not used for breeding and, ideally, replaced with local queens at the first opportunity.

  16. #56
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Mirabel, Québec, Canada
    Posts
    423

    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    The best reason for opening the U.S. Canadian border both ways isn't just for trading bees.
    It would be beneficial to migratory U.S. beekeepers who could take advantage of the very long summer days in the northern part of the provinces, and Canadian beekeepers would benefit by overwintering their bees in the south.

    Unfortunately, it's a closed shop as it seems.
    This is the last thing I would want to see happen. Migratory beekeeping is a horrible practice, bee health-wise. It accelerates the spread of (resistant or new) pests, greatly stresses the bees, and pressures for the concentration of the industry into the hands of a few. The less the bees move, the healthier they are. The less borders they cross, the happier I am.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    This practice is perfectly suited for the Prairies. It is why it was so widely practiced beforehand.
    Bring the bees up, Oxalic acid treatment before hiving. Feed them a squirt of Fumagillin and that is it for hive treatments, period. Feed them a couple gallons of syrup in the spring, and thats all the feed you have to provide for them. Kill them off in the fall, spend the winter scraping and preparing the boxes for next year. Store them in cold storage to help kill off pest presence and virus.
    Fresh queens every year which would build a fantastic summer time population. An exact measured amount of bees poured into each hive which eliminates all the spring time swarm control work.

    So many advantages in running a package bee operation. It truely was developed for the Northern States and the Canadian Prairies.

    So the question is asked, Should the rest of Canada hold the Prairie beekeepers hostage because it a package operation doesn't suit their operation and practice?
    That practice was common here too, before, and thank god those days are over. Can you imagine the bad publicity it would generate? I can already imagine PETA going all "BOYCOTT CANADIAN BEE SLAUGHTER", and American companies being all too happy to comply. I have serious issues with that practice. We put our bees through a lot, and they work really hard to earn us a living. We owe them a minimum of respect. And while yes, they are farm animals and don't get the same treatment as pets, mass annual extermination just crosses the line. Manitobans should just overwinter their bees. Otherwise, they should just give up beekeeping altogether, and let neighboring provinces fill in their pollination needs, or rely on bumblebees instead. Such practices are not only morally wrong, but would tarnish the reputation of the rest of Canadian beekeepers. It should outright be illegal. The few should never be allowed to compromise the many.

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Mirabel, Québec, Canada
    Posts
    423

    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    This practice is perfectly suited for the Prairies. It is why it was so widely practiced beforehand.
    Bring the bees up, Oxalic acid treatment before hiving. Feed them a squirt of Fumagillin and that is it for hive treatments, period. Feed them a couple gallons of syrup in the spring, and thats all the feed you have to provide for them. Kill them off in the fall, spend the winter scraping and preparing the boxes for next year. Store them in cold storage to help kill off pest presence and virus.
    Fresh queens every year which would build a fantastic summer time population. An exact measured amount of bees poured into each hive which eliminates all the spring time swarm control work.

    So many advantages in running a package bee operation. It truely was developed for the Northern States and the Canadian Prairies.

    So the question is asked, Should the rest of Canada hold the Prairie beekeepers hostage because it a package operation doesn't suit their operation and practice?
    I'd also like to point out a few things, this way of working is not a means to kill off all disease. You can't have a pest-free province just by killing all of your bees every year.

    1) Not everyone will kill off their bees, even if a minority, these colonies will act to maintain and spread the most resistant pests you import.
    2) Even those who try won't really kill all of their bees, as it is inevitable that there will be some swarming and thus that feral bees will maintain those pests.
    3) "Prophylactic" usage of antibiotics is pretty much the best way to get antibiotic-resistant disease. The spores of which can survive many years, as well as actively spread from surviving colonies.
    4) Cold may kill the pests, but not the disease, certainly not the viruses.

    This is just lazy beekeeping.

    And would you be proud to tell your customers that you kill off all of your bees every year? If it's not something to be proud of, it shouldn't be done.

  18. #58
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Spokane, Washington, USA
    Posts
    734

    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    This practice is perfectly suited for the Prairies. It is why it was so widely practiced beforehand.
    Bring the bees up, Oxalic acid treatment before hiving. Feed them a squirt of Fumagillin and that is it for hive treatments, period. Feed them a couple gallons of syrup in the spring, and thats all the feed you have to provide for them. Kill them off in the fall, spend the winter scraping and preparing the boxes for next year. Store them in cold storage to help kill off pest presence and virus.
    Fresh queens every year which would build a fantastic summer time population. An exact measured amount of bees poured into each hive which eliminates all the spring time swarm control work.

    So many advantages in running a package bee operation. It truely was developed for the Northern States and the Canadian Prairies.

    So the question is asked, Should the rest of Canada hold the Prairie beekeepers hostage because it a package operation doesn't suit their operation and practice?
    Ian, Your winter would be stress free.

    My ancestors did the same. Shipped package bees from Georgia into Siberia and killed them off in the fall.

  19. #59
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Roy, Wa
    Posts
    1,677

    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Wholly Cow Rak, I'd like to hear that story!

  20. #60
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
    Posts
    3,052

    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Dominic: You will probably be happy to know that most of these operations now simply sell fall shake out bees to southern operations. I am surprised at the amount of bee anthropomorphication expressed here. Are you involved in agriculture?
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

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