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  1. #21
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    I know Apivar is Amitraz, and it's the only chemical treatment we have that works. And I know by using it every year the chances of resistance increases, but by rotating it with chemical treatments that don't work is not going to help the situation at all.

    The limited avdlibility of mite control products is one of our industries largest concerns. Because we only have one treatment. And by trying to keep pests that are resistant to our effective treatments out is probably in our best interests for the short term anyway. This is one of the main points for keeping US bees out

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    I have not read the report, just comments from general discussions around here

  3. #23
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    The limited avdlibility of mite control products is one of our industries largest concerns. Because we only have one treatment. And by trying to keep pests that are resistant to our effective treatments out is probably in our best interests for the short term anyway. This is one of the main points for keeping US bees out
    If you are going to treat wouldn't you be better off letting the cheap bees from the US in? If you are not going to treat I can see keeping the US bees out but if you are already treating you might as well flood the market.
    Last edited by Acebird; 11-05-2013 at 05:26 AM.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    I don't follow. The fear is bringing in pest resistant to our effective treatment.

  5. #25
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    May 2010
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    Spokane, Washington, USA
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    I know Apivar is Amitraz, and it's the only chemical treatment we have that works. And I know by using it every year the chances of resistance increases, but by rotating it with chemical treatments that don't work is not going to help the situation at all.

    The limited avdlibility of mite control products is one of our industries largest concerns. Because we only have one treatment. And by trying to keep pests that are resistant to our effective treatments out is probably in our best interests for the short term anyway. This is one of the main points for keeping US bees out
    I know keepers who have been using amitraz for over 20 years with no resistance. 1 case of Resistance was observed in Europe but no one knows how true the claim is. Also, 2 acids work very well for varroa when applied correctly. No way mites could become resistant to that.

  6. #26
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    20 years? If that's the case we have nothing to worry about. We have found that silver bullet
    Acids are like putting out a fire with a garden hose. It works and works very well at certain times but if the fire gets too big and out of hand thanks to the wind, the whole yard will burn

  7. #27
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    Spokane, Washington, USA
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    We have found that silver bullet
    Thats right.

    These guys aren't losing more than 10% but they also focus on queens and nutrition as well. The only problem is that its getting kinda hard to get the stuff. Im having great results but were doing Maqs in spring, Amitraz September and oxalic occasionally.

  8. #28
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    Garland, Bladen County, NC, USA
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Are there examples of hives being "Slimed" north of the border?
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  9. #29
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    Jul 2013
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    Mirabel, Québec, Canada
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAK View Post
    I know keepers who have been using amitraz for over 20 years with no resistance. 1 case of Resistance was observed in Europe but no one knows how true the claim is. Also, 2 acids work very well for varroa when applied correctly. No way mites could become resistant to that.
    Hearsay and anecdotes are poor justifications for policy.

    There are no reports of amitraz-resistant Varroa in Canada, but there is in the United States, as well as some strains resistant to all three products. The people you know are lucky. Migratory beekeeping is a great way to spread the worst bugs all over your country, and it's only a matter of time before one of these migratory beekeepers brings one of those super varroa strains to your buddies. If all they use is amitraz, they'll bee exerting a selection pressure in favor of the resistant varroa and will end up with quite a surprise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    20 years? If that's the case we have nothing to worry about. We have found that silver bullet
    Acids are like putting out a fire with a garden hose. It works and works very well at certain times but if the fire gets too big and out of hand thanks to the wind, the whole yard will burn
    I don't see how oxalic acid vaporization can be any less controlled and precise than chemical poison strips. I'll grant you that the same can't be said about formic acid given how it is temperature-dependant, though there are various dispensers that help regulate the flow and prevent over-application.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAK View Post
    Thats right.

    These guys aren't losing more than 10% but they also focus on queens and nutrition as well. The only problem is that its getting kinda hard to get the stuff. Im having great results but were doing Maqs in spring, Amitraz September and oxalic occasionally.
    They are losing 10% now. Pretty sure people always think they found a silver bullet whenever a new chemical comes out.

    I'm not saying people shouldn't use amitraz, though. If it works, then by all means, do use it! But do rotations! As you do, with formic and oxalic acid. Hive health should be about a great variety of factors, and nobody should just leave it to some miracle pesticide that one can just count on to fix the rest of one's negligence. Genetics, nutrition, and general practices are more important to hive health than pesticides are, even if pesticides can sometimes mask the deficiencies caused by these.

  10. #30
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    Jul 2013
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    Mirabel, Québec, Canada
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    I know Apivar is Amitraz, and it's the only chemical treatment we have that works. And I know by using it every year the chances of resistance increases, but by rotating it with chemical treatments that don't work is not going to help the situation at all.

    The limited avdlibility of mite control products is one of our industries largest concerns. Because we only have one treatment. And by trying to keep pests that are resistant to our effective treatments out is probably in our best interests for the short term anyway. This is one of the main points for keeping US bees out
    It's not your only treatment. I don't think you are allowed to use oxalic acid where you are, but I think formic acid is allowed.

    Resistance is also a trait that can be "bred out" of Varroa by avoiding using a given product for multiple generations. This has been demonstrated with fluvalinate, which can return to 90% efficiency. The report states that the same may be possible with coumaphos (17% efficiency), but then again maybe not.

    Products like thymovar and oxalic acid really help in the fight against Varroa. If you can't use them at home, then making pressures to have them legalized might be a good thing to do. Coming up with a single new great product at a time is the best way of making all discovered products worthless on the long run.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dominic View Post
    I'm not saying people shouldn't use amitraz, though. If it works, then by all means, do use it! But do rotations!
    That goes against human nature. If you use a drug and it works you are not going to risk using something else that may not work as good or at all. You are more likely to use more of what worked the first time. The same logic occurs for people who treat in general. If they treat and it works they are never going to stop treating even if it doesn't work. You will never get a policy of voluntary rotation to work because the results from each procedure are not the same. I don't even think a communist form of government could control the chemical usage. There would just be black markets.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  12. #32
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    Mirabel, Québec, Canada
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    That goes against human nature. If you use a drug and it works you are not going to risk using something else that may not work as good or at all. You are more likely to use more of what worked the first time. The same logic occurs for people who treat in general. If they treat and it works they are never going to stop treating even if it doesn't work. You will never get a policy of voluntary rotation to work because the results from each procedure are not the same. I don't even think a communist form of government could control the chemical usage. There would just be black markets.
    You need a course, though, to use the synthetic chemicals, no? Or to buy them? It could be stressed there.

    And there are a number of ways the government could try to promote or enforce rotations. Even if it doesn't manage 100% compliance, they could certainly increase it significantly.

    If it were up to me, I'd make it illegal to register pesticides for any given problem unless there are already alternatives or unless the company presents two different chemicals at a time. The approach of using one product until it stops working completely, and then moving on to the next until it does the same, is completely nonsensical. Such short-term vision does not help agriculture in general, nor beekeepers specifically.

    In any case, the document's 91 pages long, I finished reading it yesterday. I tend to agree with it, though I'd have brought the restrictions even higher by banning the imports of bumblebee colonies as well (which can be a vector of SHB and other bee pests) and blacklisting sloppy breeders who manage to ship varroa mites on hand-picked queens...

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Ok, we need to rotate, got it. We also need more options. And for the short term it is best if we restrict pest movement within our continent.

    Now an opinion from the other side of the story, what about the availability of bees? Speaking only on package bee across the boarder, no comb.
    If we could get a solid supply of package bees to supply our yearly production needs, practicing more of a buy in spring and shake out in fall, treatments could just about be eliminated

  14. #34
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    Jun 2011
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    Nesbitt,Manitoba,Canada
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    I have read the report and I for one, think that the decision to keep the border closed was the right one. The availability of packages from the US would be a short term gain for the potential of long term pain if the diseases and pests prevalent in the US become established here. We do not have a wide array of treatment options available to us here, which has already been established by other posters. There have been isolated reports of SHB, resistant varroa, AFB etc but since they are isolated they can be dealt with effectively to keep it from becoming a widespread problem. This collection of pests can greatly outpace our ability to contain it since we do not have the treatments available to us, by the time regulations caught up it would be too late.
    CFIA's role is to do its best to protect industry - as a whole. The opinion of the report is one that the Canadian beekeeping industry is better served by keeping things out of the country as long as possible. It is a double edge sword - producers complain that the Govt is regulating our operations and hindering our ability to do what is necessary to maintain our operations. However the same beekeepers that are wanting this get some bad packages that severely hurt their operation which they could spend years recovering from, not to mention spreading it to other operations as well, they will be the first to complain that the Govt should have done more and been more vigilant to the industry and require compensation for their losses. To the industry as a whole it is more important to maintain Canada's status as being 'free' of these pests than to have the cheap supply of packages brought in and jeopardizing this.
    I have the 'luxury' of sitting on both sides of the fence but until we develop our own self sustaining system of bee supply, this will be an ongoing issue.

  15. #35
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    Jul 2013
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    Mirabel, Québec, Canada
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Ok, we need to rotate, got it. We also need more options. And for the short term it is best if we restrict pest movement within our continent.

    Now an opinion from the other side of the story, what about the availability of bees? Speaking only on package bee across the boarder, no comb.
    If we could get a solid supply of package bees to supply our yearly production needs, practicing more of a buy in spring and shake out in fall, treatments could just about be eliminated
    The solution is not importation of cheap packages full of super bugs, but domestic breeding.

    Of course, from what I gather in the report, the situation is quite different in Manitoba than in Québec and Ontario, where we are much more self-sufficient.

    Are you talking about the old practice of killing off all of your bees when winter comes? Aside from the big ethical issue I have with that, such practices do not promote self-sustainability, do not favor the emergence of bees truly adapted to local climate (optimal genetics) and, as stated in the report, presents a significant risk for the introduction and spreading of treatment-resistant pests and disease, some of them escaping and surviving in the environment with or without feral swarms.

    It's my opinion that if Manitoban beekeepers want more bees in the spring, they should simply make sure to overwinter more bees in the fall. The shortage of bees in the spring is really not a fatality, but the result of the industry's unwillingness to properly prepare and organize itself.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Sounds like Manitoba would be a very good place for a Shake-collect honey- Shake out kind of operation.... if the price of packages were not so high. The price of a Canadian package is pretty spectacular... or so I've hear..... no idea how accurate the info is.

    If package bees could be moved into Canada I suppose one would drive a flatbed down to GA in March (when they are readily available) and load up for about $65/package (assuming a large order.... 500 or so). Given the type of honey yields I have heard of in Manitoba, there would seem to be a good chance for profitability + a long winter vacation.
    “Don’t tell me how educated you are, tell me how much you have travelled.” - The Quran

  17. #37
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    Jun 2011
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    Campbell River, BC, CA
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by hpm08161947 View Post
    The price of a Canadian package is pretty spectacular... or so I've hear..... no idea how accurate the info is.
    When we started out in 2011, we bought 4lb new zealand packages. Small lot retail, they ran around $250 if memory serves correctly. We didn't realize it at the time, but they are intended to start two hives from, and typically come with 2 queens. We got 3 queens with a pair of packages, and shook them evenly across 3 boxes to start 3 hives.

    If the border was opened up, I think the southern package producers would be rejoicing, and, american package purchasers would be horrified at what happens to pricing. I suspect a lot of the producers have been holding off on giving prices for 2014 spring packages, waiting on this decision. If the decision had allowed for northbound bees in package form, prices would have immediately jumped substantially. I also suspect it would have been devastating for australian package producers.

    Me thinks there was plenty of politics behind the scenes, that us mere beekeepers were never aware of. I'd actually be quite surprised if there was not some lobby efforts originating with the southern hemisphere producers.

  18. #38
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    Sep 2011
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    Skiff, Alberta, CA
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Other than saving some money on packages, can anyone give me a reason to import continental US bees?

  19. #39
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    Mirabel, Québec, Canada
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Quote Originally Posted by Haraga View Post
    Other than saving some money on packages, can anyone give me a reason to import continental US bees?
    I'm all for tough restrictions on bee imports, but I wouldn't want queens to be totally banned as they temporarily were. Greater control, perhaps, with possibly a special tax, but queen imports should remain allowed. Or at the very least, germplasm.

    The only valid reason in my eyes for importing bees is for their genetics, in order to be able to enrich our diversity and add particular traits developed by American researchers, ex: Primorsky bees, Minnesota hygienic bees, VSH bees, old world bees, etc. I suspect most queen imports are just done because American queens are cheaper and/or available sooner, which results in sub-par bees that don't do all that well in our climate. Genetic pollution more than anything else, really.

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Canada Border To Remain Closed…Probably.

    Resistance genetics.

    Aussie bees have never seen a Varroa.

    As for genetic pollution, if you mean AHB in southern US bees, it isn't the case according to a recent study.

    I think that calling US stock 'pollution' is a bit over the top.

    They're uniquely US Honeybees according to what I'm reading in Honeybee genetics research.
    Last edited by WLC; 11-05-2013 at 06:26 PM.

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