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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    Roanoke, VA, USA
    Posts
    232

    Default Re: Grooved vs Wedge

    thanks for beautiful pictures and great ideas -- we are in a chilly period many days so I haven't been able to look at a frame for a week or two.. Amazing how much I miss it -- and enjoy it in season. I guess I'll have to pull a honey frame out of the freezer soon and host a feast.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    46,774

    Default Re: Grooved vs Wedge

    >Apparently there is a plastic insert that wedges the foundation in the groove.

    I know nothing about plastic inserts, but you can insert plastic foundation by just popping it into a grooved top bar.

    >>I thought Michael Bush was foundationless.
    >...he has also been beekeeping for a long time so it is unlikely that there isn't much he hasn't done.

    Not much... I would prefer grooved as long as I have foundation that will work with it. I prefer the wax tube fastener to nailing any day of the week. But anymore, I prefer foundationless to foundation.

    >The hot wax tube sold by Kelley and others is what you should use to install wax foundation in grooved top bars. Buy hookless, wired foundation.

    And there is the secret. If it has hooks it really doesn't work well unless you have the wedge top bar and often won't fit unless you also have a split bottom bar. Both the wedge top bar and the split bottom bar are, in my opinion, poor designs but the frame design needs to match the foundation design and dimensions. The only supplier who seems to provide really good information on what foundation goes well with what frame is Walter T. Kelley. They also offer the widest variety of sizes, shapes, thicknesses and cell sizes such as 7/11, drone, 4.9mm etc.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Lk Stevens, WA
    Posts
    166

    Default Re: Grooved vs Wedge

    I like grooved topbar and a solid bottom. I wire and then use a battery charger to heat the wires to inbed the foundation. I have never used a wax tube to hold the foundation in place. I operate around a 150 hives. In all the years I can think of maybe a half dozen frames that I did not get the foundation in the top groove that fell out. The wire closest to the topbar is about an inch away and has the strength to hold the foundation in the top groove. I use western bees frames.

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    10,190

    Default Re: Grooved vs Wedge

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    And there is the secret. If it has hooks it really doesn't work well unless you have the wedge top bar and often won't fit unless you also have a split bottom bar.
    What is the point of vertical wires if there are no hooks?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  5. #65
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    San Mateo, CA
    Posts
    5,044

    Default Re: Grooved vs Wedge

    >What is the point of vertical wires if there are no hooks?

    Keeps the foundation from bowing and sagging. More reinforcement when extracting. I have for decades used vertical wired foundation and horizontal wires.


  6. #66
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    10,190

    Default Re: Grooved vs Wedge

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    >What is the point of vertical wires if there are no hooks?

    Keeps the foundation from bowing and sagging. More reinforcement when extracting.
    Unless the vertical wire comes in contact with the bottom bar (which could not be split) it will not support much. If you are putting horizontal wires in tension I don't see where the vertical wires would be doing anything except in a tangential extractor.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    3,762

    Default Re: Grooved vs Wedge

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    don't see where the vertical wires would be doing anything
    Snip
    I believe it was mentioned that the wires give support to the wax to avoid sagging until it's drawn out....


    Rebar wouldn't need to span an entire concrete structure to provide support to the middle.... Would it?
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,724

    Default Re: Grooved vs Wedge

    You ask a question, then argue with the answer!

    Have you ever heard of fiber-reinforced concrete? http://www.fibermesh.com/

    How about fiberglass fabric embedded in resin? http://www.fibreglast.com/category/Fiberglass_Fabric

    In both of those applications the [originally] flexible fibers are not installed under tension, yet provide reinforcement.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  9. #69
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    San Mateo, CA
    Posts
    5,044

    Default Re: Grooved vs Wedge

    >Unless the vertical wire comes in contact with the bottom bar (which could not be split)

    Divided and split bottom bars are commonplace.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    10,190

    Default Re: Grooved vs Wedge

    Quote Originally Posted by BeeCurious View Post
    Rebar wouldn't need to span an entire concrete structure to provide support to the middle.... Would it?
    Concrete has different properties than wax. Concrete is unaffected by ambient temperatures. If it weren't for warm temperatures wax would need no support at all. It is quite strong at 40 degrees and quite limp at 110. Vertical wires not attached to the top bar would not give much support to comb in warm temperatures unless the wire hit the bottom bar.

    Rebar is generally used in concrete to give it tensile and shear properties.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,724

    Default Re: Grooved vs Wedge

    > Concrete is unaffected by ambient temperatures.

    Hmmm ...


    Typical example of concrete deteriorated from freeze thaw actions.

    More at this page titled: "Freeze - Thaw Deterioration of Concrete

    http://www.concrete-experts.com/pages/ft.htm

    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Fairfield County, Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    3,762

    Default Re: Grooved vs Wedge

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    Vertical wires not attached to the top bar would not give much support to comb in warm temperatures unless the wire hit the bottom bar.
    Of course the vertical wires are attached at the top......

    As Bush suggested, with wax, applied with a "wax tube fastener".

    I use PF-120 (more and more all the time) and horizontally wired frames (some of which are narrow). At times I have used my wax tube fastener to attach starter strips but I got away from using them. Even with two horizontal wires I sometimes "tab" the foundation into the top bar groves with the WTF, especially if temperatures are elevated. I buy deep sheets of non-wired small cell foundation and cut them in half (horizontally). The bees are free to construct whatever they wish in the open area at the bottom.
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  13. #73
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    San Mateo, CA
    Posts
    5,044

    Default Re: Grooved vs Wedge

    >Of course the vertical wires are attached at the top...

    I never attach the wires at the top. I use GBB and GTB, VW foundation no hooks, with four horizontal wires electrically embedded. I just pop in the foundation and embed. Thousands of frames in several depths for over 40 years and it has always worked like a charm. And I am not even an engineer!!!

    I don't like the wedge topbar, especially when it comes time to renovate them.

    I find frame wiring to be very meditative and soothing. Embedding also.

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    10,190

    Default Re: Grooved vs Wedge

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    Thousands of frames in several depths for over 40 years and it has always worked like a charm.
    The discussion is not whether it works. The discussion is whether both wires are needed if the vertical wires have hooks. If the vertical wires have no hooks will it work without the horizontal wires? It doesn't take 40 years and thousands of frames to determine it works with hooks and no horizontal wires whether you are an engineer or not.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,724

    Default Re: Grooved vs Wedge

    > The discussion is whether both wires are needed if the vertical wires have hooks.


    This discussion started when Ace challenged Michael Bush's comment in post #62 that:

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    If it has hooks it really doesn't work well unless you have the wedge top bar and often won't fit unless you also have a split bottom bar.
    with this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    What is the point of vertical wires if there are no hooks?
    Ollie provided an answer backed by 40 years of his experience. Now Ace says:
    The discussion is not whether it works.


    Really?



    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  16. #76
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    San Mateo, CA
    Posts
    5,044

    Default Re: Grooved vs Wedge

    A discussion with Ace reminds me of the the quote:

    "Don't mud wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig enjoys it."

  17. #77
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Reno, NV
    Posts
    3,178

    Default Re: Grooved vs Wedge

    Why woudl you assume that Ace is the pig. I tend to see Graham the one constantly dredging up irrelevant issues. Now I agree that Ace's opinion is a bit off for me at times to. but at least they are generally on topic And not intended to dig the mud pit. Grahams are a backhoe. Made for no other reason than to spread discourse. by the way folks that is what a troll is. Not someone that constantly posts opinions you disagree with. they are person that posts for no other reason than to stir others up. The best trolls have gotten good at maintaining a smattering of relevant and seemingly helpful posts. but if you really look they have little content or only reveal a shallow depth of involvement at best. Otherwise they tend to know what everyone has ever said at any time. that is because they live to know that stuff. it is ammo.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  18. #78
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,724

    Default Re: Grooved vs Wedge







    What more can I say .... ... ... some Beesource Sunday mornings just can't be beat!




    P.S. I really do have a small backhoe. Its a great tool!
    .
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 11-10-2013 at 07:23 AM.
    Graham
    USDA Zone 7A Elevation 1400 ft

  19. #79
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
    Posts
    5,609

    Default Re: Grooved vs Wedge

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    The discussion is not whether it works. The discussion is whether both wires are needed if the vertical wires have hooks. If the vertical wires have no hooks will it work without the horizontal wires? It doesn't take 40 years and thousands of frames to determine it works with hooks and no horizontal wires whether you are an engineer or not.
    The horizontal wires are for keeping the foundation straight...as there is a natural curve created by the vertical wires. Those vertical wires came off a roll and retain the curve. The horizontal wires also add strength to the comb for support during extraction. They offer little in vertical support.

    The crimped wires offer vertical support when the foundation is being drawn, and combined with horizontal wires, lateral support when extracting. The crimp wires don't need hooks to be effective. They add vertical support when embedded in a grooved top bar with hot wax, which holds the wires quite well.

    Really does work Ace, one complimenting the other...believe it.

  20. #80
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Utica, NY
    Posts
    10,190

    Default Re: Grooved vs Wedge

    Everything in my engineering books say that the horizontal wires offer vertical support and the vertical wires offer next to nothing when there are no hooks. But hey, beekeepers know best so lets just run with the myth.

    Although, some beekeeper use no wires at all. How is that even possible?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

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