Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 45
  1. #21
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,677

    Default Re: Breeding the good mite

    Quote Originally Posted by jfb58 View Post
    Start with Wikipedia.
    Yes, found it. I'd still like a more detailed source. Its a question I've asked several times, and always recieved the same reply: the drones are identical (even that's what 'drone' means').

    Please note (esp. Radar, who seems to have given up all pretense of being 'an impartial archivist' now) I took care to write: "As I understand it: all drones from the same hive carry the same genes."

    I get it: it is the sperm of each drone that are identical.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 10-30-2013 at 12:12 PM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  2. #22
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,677

    Default Re: Breeding the good mite

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    To start with, all drones are not equal. One single drone has sperm cells, which all are the same, but one hive has lots of genetically different drones. Learn the basics first, Mike.
    That's probably good advice; but I have to ask: which is more basic: evolutionary biology, or molecular/genetic biology?

    Darwin made the great discovery that natural selection is the causal mechanism underlying population change and species diversity. It holds perfectly well today. The breeders he spoke with knew very well how to maintain health and bring out desirable traits through selective parantage. Neither knew anything about genes.

    I think that as a beekeeper its more useful to understand natural selection/simple breeding principles, than it is to know all the details of genetic interactions. I think knowledge of natural selection is more basic. And I always tried to stay as close to basics as possible - because I believe this stuff is easily understandable to anyone who wants to take a look, and the same isn't so true of molecular biology.

    However: I'm here to learn; and I'm interested now to get to grip with how this understanding affects my way of thinking, and how it operates within your ideas Julian. Once I've had a little while to take a fresh look I'll be back for some more chat.

    Meanwhile, thanks for opening up a new layer for me.

    Mike (UK)



    .
    Last edited by mike bispham; 10-31-2013 at 09:30 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  3. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,341

    Default Re: Breeding the good mite

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Please note (esp. Radar, who seems to have given up all pretense of being 'an impartial archivist' now) I took care to write: "As I understand it: all drones from the same hive carry the same genes."
    I have no issue with you,(or anyone else) using the phrase "as I understand it". In fact, I also use that phrase.

    But when you call other people's posts "nonsense", that gets my dander up!

    As far as my being "impartial", wherever did you get that idea? It certainly did not come from me, nor, as far as I can tell from Barry. I have opinions, just like everyone else posting on this board. I will continue to express my opinions as I see fit.



    (So there is no misunderstanding, there is a title under my member name, but it is only a title. I am not a moderator, I have no more authority, rights or responsibilities than any other Beesource member. I have never discussed with Barry anything regarding that title, other than our respective comments in this thread:
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...722#post903722 )
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 10-30-2013 at 01:48 PM. Reason: add "title" vs "moderator" comments
    Graham
    --- Practical reality trumps philosophy!

  4. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Redlands, CA USA
    Posts
    102

    Default Re: Breeding the good mite

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Yes, found it. I'd still like a more detailed source. Its a question I've asked several times, and always recieved the same reply: the drones are identical (even that's what 'drone' means').

    Please note (esp. Radar, who seems to have given up all pretense of being 'an impartial archivist' now) I took care to write: "As I understand it: all drones from the same hive carry the same genes."

    I get it: it is the sperm of each drone that are identical.

    Mike (UK)
    You don't seem to really get it, as others, especially JWChestnut explained, there is tremendous genetic variability from a single queen. Honeybee queens have 16 pairs of chromosomes so there are thousands and thousands of genetically distinct drones possible, even in the same hive! The term 'drone' when applied to bees is not the same as in the 'Star Wars' sense.
    Last edited by jfb58; 10-30-2013 at 02:34 PM.

  5. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    West Bath, Maine, United States
    Posts
    1,142

    Default Re: Breeding the good mite

    From post #8 reference 1; " At the phenotypic level, there is known variation among Varroa haplotype groups and species in their ability to successfully parasitize A. mellifera [16,17], as well as known variation in the resistance of honey bee strains [14,15,54,55]."

    While I do not doupt that colapse is a primary mode of dispersal, I find it illogical that it is the sole dispersal mode. A mite line that does not kill, but survives for a longer time has the potential to distribute an equal # of genes at a slower rate through drift.

    Isolation and reduced drift has to be a significant survival benefit for ferals. ( And aan inverse factor for commercials)

    Question; How common is mite drift through adult drones?
    4 yrs, Peak 14, back to zip, T lite; godfather to brother's 3.

  6. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Mtn. View, Arkansas, USA
    Posts
    1,290

    Default Re: Breeding the good mite

    A study in Italy showed mite invasion of 2 to 14 per day into a colony during summer, with a peak of 76 mites per day during the fall. I think the methods of invasion was due to drone drift, robber bees returning with mites, and bees from crashing colonies drifting to strong colonies.

  7. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,679

    Default Re: Breeding the good mite

    There seems to be a lot of skating around the issues here (wrt the OP).

    Varroa reproduction is very different from bee reproduction...varroa populations tend to be inbred to the point of being almost monoclonal....very little genetic diversity within a local population of mites.

    _If_ you have a situation where you have achieved some kind of "balance" between the bees and the mites, and _if_ you believe that the genetic traits of that population of mites is part of the reason, there is one "worst" thing you can do to that balance...

    ...which is to introduce a separate population of mites, as this will allow for selection/recombination (outmating)..which is how adaptations occur.

    The goal is to have the bees adapt faster than the mites (even if it seems like it is "balance" we are after), not to help the mites adapt faster.

    deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,679

    Default Re: Breeding the good mite

    ...let me add that we have brought a few "treatment free nucs" in a few years ago...in the middle of our home yard with haves that were not collapsing, these two nucs collapsed dramatically (the capped brood looked like someone had run 220 sandpaper over it from all the uncapping due to mites).

    deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  9. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
    Posts
    4,454

    Default Re: Breeding the good mite

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    There seems to be a lot of skating around the issues here (wrt the OP).

    Varroa reproduction is very different from bee reproduction...varroa populations tend to be inbred to the point of being almost monoclonal....very little genetic diversity within a local population of mites.

    _If_ you have a situation where you have achieved some kind of "balance" between the bees and the mites, and _if_ you believe that the genetic traits of that population of mites is part of the reason, there is one "worst" thing you can do to that balance...

    ...which is to introduce a separate population of mites, as this will allow for selection/recombination (outmating)..which is how adaptations occur.

    The goal is to have the bees adapt faster than the mites (even if it seems like it is "balance" we are after), not to help the mites adapt faster.

    deknow
    I agree completely. Beekeepers that are able to keep mite numbers low enough to be constantly inbreeding are bound to be raising mites with less and less virility. It stands to reason that drift and robbing events in more congested bee yards can bee a boon to varroa. I think It explains the challenges that larger operations have with mite collapse while some are able to keep smaller numbers of hives treatment free.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  10. #30
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Redlands, CA USA
    Posts
    102

    Default Re: Breeding the good mite

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    ...let me add that we have brought a few "treatment free nucs" in a few years ago...in the middle of our home yard with haves that were not collapsing, these two nucs collapsed dramatically (the capped brood looked like someone had run 220 sandpaper over it from all the uncapping due to mites).

    deknow
    Had the home yard been treated? Did you treat the added nucs? I'm not sure this would be evidence of interbreeding of the mites from the two populations, but it might mean that treatment, by some mechanism, leads to more virulent varroa.

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Redlands, CA USA
    Posts
    102

    Default Re: Breeding the good mite

    dbl post
    Last edited by jfb58; 10-30-2013 at 10:14 PM. Reason: dbl post

  12. #32
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Worcester County, Massachusetts
    Posts
    3,679

    Default Re: Breeding the good mite

    Nothing was treated. The observation doesn't necessarily indicate anything specific, except a common anecdotal experience where bees that are doing fine untreated collapse when moved. The outmating of mites has often been suggested by others as a possible mechanism.

    deknow
    The perils of benefactors; The blessings of parasites; Blindness blindness and sight -Joni Mitchell 'Shadows and Light'

  13. #33
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Redlands, CA USA
    Posts
    102

    Default Re: Breeding the good mite

    Thanks for the clarification, didn't mean to be difficult. My intuitive prejudice is to relate the varroa problem to microbial antibiotic resistance...

  14. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    West Bath, Maine, United States
    Posts
    1,142

    Default Re: Breeding the good mite

    deknow, interesting, I'll have to think about that. Concept would be supported by breeding only from your own survivors. Catching swarms and buying packages would be similar to nucs.
    4 yrs, Peak 14, back to zip, T lite; godfather to brother's 3.

  15. #35
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,677

    Default Re: Breeding the good mite

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    As far as my being "impartial", wherever did you get that idea? It certainly did not come from me, nor, as far as I can tell from Barry. I have opinions, just like everyone else posting on this board. I will continue to express my opinions as I see fit.
    Why have 'resident archivist' under your name unless you want to give the impression that's what you are? And I'm pretty sure I've seen you use that notion to claim impartiality, along the lines: 'I'm just an archivist' as you bring up something somebody said some other time that appears inconsistent with something they've just said.

    There's nothing wrong with doing that - people should be consistent or held to account. And official or not, I've no problem with you playing the role of self-appointed (and self-policed) archivist. But as I've had occasion to point out before: archivists are scrupulously impartial. They don't take sides, and find only inconsistencies in one side of an argument - as you apprear to (try to) find inconsistencies in only the tf arguments. If you're going to pretend to be an archivist, do it properly Graham.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 10-31-2013 at 12:28 PM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  16. #36
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,677

    Default Re: Breeding the good mite

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    ...let me add that we have brought a few "treatment free nucs" in a few years ago...in the middle of our home yard with haves that were not collapsing, these two nucs collapsed dramatically (the capped brood looked like someone had run 220 sandpaper over it from all the uncapping due to mites).
    What is your diagnosis of what happened Dean? The collapsing new hives were not able to withstand something about your own mites, which your own bees are able to stand? Yet they were strongly vsh - as evidenced by the uncapping; and had recieved a large dose of mites from robbers/visiting drones? And/or, their mites and yours had created a hybrid strain that was highly fecund, despite both original strains being of low fecundity?

    It may well be that the two sets of bees had utilysed different mite-managment mechanisms - nothing to do with different mite strains - or that they had mite strains of different characteristics due to those different mite-management methods.

    What ever the case, it seems the story is: sooner or later your bees may meet with mites from outside that will upset the balance - it might have been your own been that reacted badly.

    A strong argument against importation?

    And a strong argument against Julian's recomendation that mite-vulnerable drones are bought in to bring about some sort of genetic reshuffling that will have a positive effect? (A rationale I still fail to grasp.)

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  17. #37

    Default Re: Breeding the good mite

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    And a strong argument against Julian's recomendation that mite-vulnerable drones are bought in to bring about some sort of genetic reshuffling that will have a positive effect? (A rationale I still fail to grasp.)
    Mike (UK)
    If you mean me(Juhani, not Julian), I just want to correct. You wrote about Kefuss loading his hives with mites. I agreed and continued: " Mating new queens with heavily infested dronehives is one of the secrets." I never wrote about mite-vulnerable drones.

    All my hives have up to 5% infestation. Even when they only have 1% (some have very few, I only check the breeders) that is much more than usually accepted. Thus my dronehives can be called heavily infested. But they are, of course, the best hives I have at the moment and usually they are about 5-6 boxes high in mid summer.

    The secret is the difference between haploid and diploid animals. When a diploid animal (worker bee or queen) has a bad gene, there is always the possibility, that it is not seen in its appearance. In this circumstance the breeder can make a wrong selection/choice of a breeder. The bad gene is carried to next generation. But when a drone has a bad gene, he is immediately out of business, because he has not the other set of chromosomes, where there could be a good gene to dominate the bad one. Breeding work is making more progress and faster.

    But remember: I have done Varroa resistance breeding only 12 years, all the time with one or two isolation apiaries 30 km in the wilderness for the queens to mate, I have exported my queens to only 8 countries in only two continents, I have only one leading European breeder saying that a breeder of mine "does not need any Varroa treatment", my Internet page is not the first one when searched by Google with "Varroa resistance" and so on. My opinions are only speculations. Iīm seeking the truth, though.

  18. #38
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,677

    Default Re: Breeding the good mite

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    If you mean me(Juhani, not Julian), I just want to correct. You wrote about Kefuss loading his hives with mites. I agreed and continued: " Mating new queens with heavily infested dronehives is one of the secrets." I never wrote about mite-vulnerable drones.
    Thanks Juhani (sorry about the name mistake)

    I'm still puzzled, and I'll try to make clear why in responses to your post:

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    All my hives have up to 5% infestation. Even when they only have 1% (some have very few, I only check the breeders) that is much more than usually accepted. Thus my dronehives can be called heavily infested. But they are, of course, the best hives I have at the moment and usually they are about 5-6 boxes high in mid summer.
    Ok

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    The secret is the difference between haploid and diploid animals. When a diploid animal (worker bee or queen) has a bad gene, there is always the possibility, that it is not seen in its appearance. In this circumstance the breeder can make a wrong selection/choice of a breeder. The bad gene is carried to next generation.
    Granted

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    But when a drone has a bad gene, he is immediately out of business, because he has not the other set of chromosomes, where there could be a good gene to dominate the bad one.
    Yes, but, first, quibbles, and then I'll try to show why I can't agree with the reasoning you build on this.

    For any loci/gene a drone will have one of the two his mother possessed. We'll assume she has at least one of any particular 'good' gene; though we'd hope she had two.

    If the former there'll be a 50% chance that the drone will carry it (raised by the number of drone fathers that inseminated here - but we can ignore that for the sake of example - let's say no drone fathers carried the desired gene.)

    So in our example our queen will produce 50% offspring carrying the desired gene. That may be enough to suppy the particular behaviour needed, and her colony may thrive. But 50% of her drones won't have it, and that is less than desirable.

    Now it seems to me that your argument was that this situation is better than one where all drones carried the 'good' gene, because... somehow that helps with the mite side of co-evolution. You first said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    Mating new queens with heavily infested dronehives is one of the secrets.
    and when I asked for clarification, you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    Drones are haploid (only one set of chromosomes) and thatīs why all weaker genes show immediately as poor performance. The strongest flyers are the best in generall fitness too. If queens are inseminated, this selection never takes place. When, however, one runs a mating yard and takes there heavily infested dronehives, natures selection takes place. Those drones, which attract mites most, never even hatch. Those drones, which are weakened by mites donīt fly fast enough to catch the queen. The beekeeper get lots of troubles with dronelayers in the years to come, but that can be helped by increasing the number of dronehives in the mating yard.
    Lets take that a bit at a time. (I've taken out the bits about artificial insemination, because, as I understand you, they make a different point)

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    Drones are haploid (only one set of chromosomes) and thatīs why all weaker genes show immediately as poor performance. The strongest flyers are the best in generall fitness too.
    Yes, I follow that; although the drone might carry very desirable genes in a package that is otherwise weak. But ok... in general we want the good vitality in our drones (as well as specific mite-management alleles)

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    When, however, one runs a mating yard and takes there heavily infested dronehives, natures selection takes place.
    First, and foremost; surely a heavily infested dronehive shows lack of mite-management genes. That's what we don't want. (I'm partly retracting this because you have said: these are [among] your best hives)

    I suppose deliberate dronehives might well be more infested in general terms than hives with a natural drone/worker balance, as varroa will thrive within the favoured environment of large cells. But we'd pick our drone colonies from our best mite-managers. (Again, as you've said)

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    Those drones, which attract mites most, never even hatch. Breeding work is making more progress and faster.
    Now you're talking about the environment within a single dronehive. And you are asserting that some drones for some reason attract mites, and that its a good thing to get rid of these. Well, that seems like a good idea, but I'm not sure that it'll stand up.

    First, is there any evidence at all that some drone larvre are more attractive to mites than others?

    Second, is there any evidence that that attraction correlates with a particular undesirable feather, like general weakness or lack of mite-management traits? (General weakness would be winnowed in the competitive mating flight anyway)

    Lastly (on this point), I thought we were talking about the selection of mites - in order to breed the least harmful sort. That's what the topic is. But we're talking about the mites 'de-selecting' the drones. I think I got confused there, and that's when it seemed like nonsense - apologies.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    Those drones, which are weakened by mites donīt fly fast enough to catch the queen.
    I get that bit

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    The beekeeper get lots of troubles with dronelayers in the years to come, but that can be helped by increasing the number of dronehives in the mating yard.
    This then is a drawback to the scheme? Why should this be so? And (granted for a moment that it is so), do the benefits outweigh this drawback?

    To your point that you were agreeing with me about John Kefus loading hives with varroa: I think he did this simply to apply pressure that would sort the really good mite manages from the only so-so mite managers quickly. It would knock out the less capable, leaving only the most capable in short order. I don't think he was following any deeper sort of rational.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juhani Lunden View Post
    My opinions are only speculations. Iīm seeking the truth, though.
    Me too, and talking with you is helping, thank you.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 11-01-2013 at 02:51 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  19. #39
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    6,341

    Default Re: Breeding the good mite

    Quote Originally Posted by mike bispham View Post
    Why have 'resident archivist' under your name unless you want to give the impression that's what you are?
    Mike, I'm surprised that I have to remind you that "Reading is Fundamental!"

    The title doesn't say "archivist"!
    "Archivist" is essentially a custodian of data, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archivist I have no more access to Beesource data than any other member, including you!


    If you read my earlier comment, I said I didn't ask for a title, I didn't select the words, I merely consented to Barry's question.

    I'm not a moderator, and have no intention of following any policies that YOU think are appropriate. PM your comments to Barry if you are unhappy with the way he runs Beesource. If you want to be a forum administrator, why don't you establish a forum at your own site?



    Graham
    --- Practical reality trumps philosophy!

  20. #40
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,677

    Default Re: Breeding the good mite

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    Mike, I'm surprised that I have to remind you that "Reading is Fundamental!"
    I didn't chase it down. I'm not interested in the history.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    The title doesn't say "archivist"!
    Fair do's, clumsy reading on my part. It means the same thing in Americanese though doesn't it? (With apologies to all other Americans)

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    If you read my earlier comment, I said I didn't ask for a title, I didn't select the words, I merely consented to Barry's question.
    Again, not interesting. You have 'Resident Archiver' under your appellation. That creates an impression.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    PM your comments to Barry if you are unhappy with the way he runs Beesource.
    I'm not. I just want to take every opportunity to demonstrate the concealed partiality of those who repeatedly unsettle tf discussions at the tf forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    If you want to be a forum administrator, why don't you establish a forum at your own site?
    Not happening Radar Sidetrack. You'll have to learn to live with someone who's got you figured.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Ads