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  1. #61
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    Default Re: Successful Treatment Free BeeKeeping = Breeding from Survivor stock

    Quote Originally Posted by beemandan View Post
    Again…Lusby’s? In what respects don’t they? I have no real inkling of her production or swarming. Do you?
    I've seen the video. Africanized bees are notorious for swarming. How do you get a bee like that to fill 3 deeps, as can be easily seen on the video?

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
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    Worcester County, Massachusetts
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    3,590

    Default Re: Successful Treatment Free BeeKeeping = Breeding from Survivor stock

    A couple of thoughts...

    1. With the exception of a couple of hives in her most remote yards (which are a bit "feisty"), both Michael Bush and myself have had the same experience...if the hives are smoked properly (and I'm not talking about a smokeout with a giant AHB smoker...a couple of puffs in the entrance, under the cover, and as needed) and worked like any unknown bees, they are completely manageable. The exceptions are a few hives in _really_ remote places.

    2. Ray, note that those videos were in April, before any kind of major "flow".

    3. Dee's bees were considered a separate population _before_ AHB moved into Arizona...documented as having a higher rate of thelytoky (high enough to be able to produce it on demand).

    4. AHB are supposed to swarm, not fill 5 deeps.

    5. There are a lot of good reasons to keep feisty colonies in the desert. Lots of hungry illegals in the area, not uncommon to find a box tumbled and a few frames missing. All this area is open rangeland for cattle. It's a daily sight to see cattle with cactus hainging off their mouths or any other parts...hives are a pretty handy scratching post (except for the bees).

    It is really the lack of smoke that makes these videos so "dramatic"...Dee's way of keeping the nurse bees on the brood for making splits. It's often remarked that this isn't necessary by other beekeepers (other beekeepers who are always thrilled to be told that what they are doing isn't necessary)...but Dee's bees are a bit runny on the comb, it may well work better than anything else. Can you argue with the results?

    deknow
    The irony is free. It's the sarcasm you are paying for....ironically.
    -Felicity Jones in "Chalet Girl"

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    DuPage County, Illinois USA
    Posts
    9,396

    Default Re: Successful Treatment Free BeeKeeping = Breeding from Survivor stock

    I'm curious, how do the AHB influenced bees of Florida compare to the AHB influenced bees of Arizona? I've experienced the Arizona ones firsthand and wonder if the same behavior is seen in Florida.
    Regards, Barry

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    New York City, NY
    Posts
    4,317

    Default Re: Successful Treatment Free BeeKeeping = Breeding from Survivor stock

    Here's a link to the thesis I referred to:

    http://udspace.udel.edu/bitstream/ha...pdf?sequence=1

    I wouldn't be surprised if some of the same behaviors were present.

    Regardless, should we really refer to the bees that came up positive in Florida, using morphometrics, as AHB?

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Otero County, New Mexico, USA
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    1,385

    Default Re: Successful Treatment Free BeeKeeping = Breeding from Survivor stock

    WLC - that is my point. They are obvious separate populations. As far as someone mentioning bees with African traits not filling 3 deeps - don't believe that for a minute! Some of the removals I have done have filled 4 deeps prior to my re-queening them. They reproduce so fast it only takes about a month or so. The swarming comes from the high reproductive rate and the space available. A 4 deep hive of them makes for a lot of unpredictable runny bees, but they also drag in a ton of honey because they forage for things the average domestic bees don't. The domestic bees like sweeter nectar. These feral bees are totally awesome in that regard.
    NM desert/mountain beekeeper - Black Mesa Honeybees.

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,925

    Default Re: Successful Treatment Free BeeKeeping = Breeding from Survivor stock

    >1. With the exception of a couple of hives in her most remote yards (which are a bit "feisty"), both Michael Bush and myself have had the same experience...if the hives are smoked properly (and I'm not talking about a smokeout with a giant AHB smoker...a couple of puffs in the entrance, under the cover, and as needed) and worked like any unknown bees, they are completely manageable. The exceptions are a few hives in _really_ remote places.

    Agreed. They still follow further than I would want, but they are not attacking en mass even when Dee is tearing through a yard with no smoke and throwing boxes around. The meanest bees I've seen are usually F1 crosses with AMM or F1 crosses with AHB. I've seen a lot of bees in a lot of places that are supposed to be 100% Africanized such as the Virgin Islands, Florida, Arizona etc. and never found bees as mean as some of those AMM or some supposed EHB from Texas...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Otero County, New Mexico, USA
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    1,385

    Default Re: Successful Treatment Free BeeKeeping = Breeding from Survivor stock

    I really respect Dee, but she can be pretty rough with her girls. Time is money I guess.
    NM desert/mountain beekeeper - Black Mesa Honeybees.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,622

    Default Re: Successful Treatment Free BeeKeeping = Breeding from Survivor stock

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul McCarty View Post
    WLC - that is my point. They are obvious separate populations. As far as someone mentioning bees with African traits not filling 3 deeps - don't believe that for a minute! Some of the removals I have done have filled 4 deeps prior to my re-queening them. They reproduce so fast it only takes about a month or so. The swarming comes from the high reproductive rate and the space available. A 4 deep hive of them makes for a lot of unpredictable runny bees, but they also drag in a ton of honey because they forage for things the average domestic bees don't. The domestic bees like sweeter nectar. These feral bees are totally awesome in that regard.
    There an obvious language problem here. The habit of describing all bees with an African genetic component as 'Africanized' has led to the expectation that all such bees with exhibit identical traits. That's plain daft. They are, to a greater or lesser degree mutts with Scutella genetic components.

    As and where particular African traits have conferred an advantage at the expense of older subspecies/mutts those genetic components will have remained in the population - perhaps been accentuated. As and where they haven't conferred any advantage they will have diminished.

    In different places different combinations of African and local bees will have resulted in good survival and reproduction levels. Natural selection will have, and will continue, to bring to the fore those genes that best suit the current environment - according to the bottom-line rule: most effective conversion of available energy sources into viable offspring. Its nothing but good old straightforward natural selection for the fittest strains. Where the fittest individuals are locally adapted older strains the African gentic components make little headway.

    'Africanized' has little scientific meaning beyond 'having an unspecified Scutella genetic component'.

    To anyone who thinks otherwise, try asking this question: where does the line lie? Does a single genetic component make a bee 'Africanized'? Two. Nine? A thousand? That question is unanswerable, and that demonstrates the problem.

    It would be a good idea to try to talk in ways that avoid the crazy oversimplification 'Africanized' represents. US feral bees are locally adapted mongrels that draw on whatever genetic component work best regardless of their origins. In each generation the fitter combinations supply the greater proportion of the next, perpetuating those individual genes.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    St. Albans, Vermont
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    5,322

    Default Re: Successful Treatment Free BeeKeeping = Breeding from Survivor stock

    Quote Originally Posted by deknow View Post
    Ray, I think that is like saying that humans are becoming less dependant on eye glasses over time because people who need them to see well have access to them.

    deknow
    No, it's more like saying that if you feed your bees that are in jeopardy of starvation, you are selecting for bees that will require feeding.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    West Palm Bach, FL, USA
    Posts
    81

    Default Re: Successful Treatment Free BeeKeeping = Breeding from Survivor stock

    Quote Originally Posted by Yvesrow1 View Post
    (First Year Beekeeper)
    Will his “treatment bees” significantly affect my efforts to succeed at Treatment Free Beekeeping?
    This thread has been hijacked to different topics. I have four hives and decided to go treatment free with natural cell sizing. About half a mile from me is a beekeeper with about fifty hives; he does bee removals, but I don't know his requeening plan. There will be cross breeding, but why worry about it? You can't control it. I try to only worry about the things I can control. Good luck!
    West Palm Beach, FL
    Zone 10a; Elevation 13 feet

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Otero County, New Mexico, USA
    Posts
    1,385

    Default Re: Successful Treatment Free BeeKeeping = Breeding from Survivor stock

    Yeah, I always wonder why people who aren't interested in treatment free beekeeping styles want to voice their opinions on treatment free stuff.
    NM desert/mountain beekeeper - Black Mesa Honeybees.

  12. #72
    Join Date
    May 2009
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    Canterbry, UK
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    1,622

    Default Re: Successful Treatment Free BeeKeeping = Breeding from Survivor stock

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Clean View Post
    I have four hives and decided to go treatment free with natural cell sizing. About half a mile from me is a beekeeper with about fifty hives; he does bee removals, but I don't know his requeening plan. There will be cross breeding, but why worry about it? You can't control it. I try to only worry about the things I can control.
    The thread is about breeding from survivor stock. 'Breeding' is entirely an activity in which you take steps to control parentage.

    _You_ can't control (male side) parentage because you're outgunned. Others can. Every site is different.

    The important thing is to know what makes a difference, and how to go about making use of it. Not worrying about it will, in most cases, lead to failure. You say your neighbour does lots of removals - that could well be a good sign...

    Apart from natural cell sizing, what other things do you do by way of control? Where did you source your bees? How long has treatment-free worked for you?

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,256

    Default Re: Successful Treatment Free BeeKeeping = Breeding from Survivor stock

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul McCarty View Post
    Yeah, I always wonder why people who aren't interested in treatment free beekeeping styles want to voice their opinions on treatment free stuff.
    It's an interesting question. But I suppose one thing more mysterious than bee nature is human nature.

  14. #74
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
    Posts
    1,622

    Default Re: Successful Treatment Free BeeKeeping = Breeding from Survivor stock

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    (" Originally Posted by Paul McCarty
    Yeah, I always wonder why people who aren't interested in treatment free beekeeping styles want to voice their opinions on treatment free stuff.")
    It's an interesting question. But I suppose one thing more mysterious than bee nature is human nature.
    I'm curious to know who you two have in mind? I thought this thread had been pretty clean...

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 11-09-2013 at 12:48 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  15. #75

    Default Re: Successful Treatment Free BeeKeeping = Breeding from Survivor stock

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    I'm curious, how do the AHB influenced bees of Florida compare to the AHB influenced bees of Arizona? I've experienced the Arizona ones firsthand and wonder if the same behavior is seen in Florida.
    Depends on what triggers them, I'm guessing.
    http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...ghborhood?lite
    One difference might be that in those isolated beeyards the beekeepers are heavily protected and the bees find it difficult to set many stingers. As we've seen in Dee's videos they're going hard for a target...in one case the camera. But what happens if those same bees begin to set stingers in flesh...in quantity. Once the air is filled with those pheromones does the colony's behavior ratchet up?
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  16. #76
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,078

    Default Re: Successful Treatment Free BeeKeeping = Breeding from Survivor stock

    Quote Originally Posted by Yvesrow1 View Post
    Will his “treatment bees” significantly affect my efforts to succeed at Treatment Free Beekeeping?
    In my experience, I don't find it to be a problem. There's going to be a certain expected loss each year anyway. I have found that despite having several beekeepers in the vicinity, I don't have any excessive loss rate, and in fact have lower than anybody I know of.

    Don't be afraid of it. It's not like there is one single trait that allows bees to survive treatment-free and that every queen who mates outside your genepool loses that trait. That's not how it works. His bees are dying just like yours will. You just have a bit of a stiffer final exam.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  17. #77
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Canterbry, UK
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    1,622

    Default Re: Successful Treatment Free BeeKeeping = Breeding from Survivor stock

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    In my experience, I don't find it to be a problem. There's going to be a certain expected loss each year anyway. I have found that despite having several beekeepers in the vicinity, I don't have any excessive loss rate, and in fact have lower than anybody I know of.

    Don't be afraid of it. It's not like there is one single trait that allows bees to survive treatment-free and that every queen who mates outside your genepool loses that trait. That's not how it works. His bees are dying just like yours will. You just have a bit of a stiffer final exam.
    Its going to be different wherever you go, whatever your starting material, your circumstances vis a vis feral survivors and what you do. What works for you Solomon isn't necessarily going to work for someone else.

    To some degree neighbour's treated bees will have an undesirable effect. Acting to counter that effect will increase the chances of success.

    In the beginning a lot depends on the source of the bees. Are they likely to possess any mite management traits at all? What makes you think so?

    In subsequent generations much will depend on any feral population. If you have survivors around your chances of success are much greater. If you don't you will improve your chances by acting firmly and quickly to raise resistance traits and push them into the local breeding pool. You should do that anyway. Maximise your chances by taking particular steps - bringing in bees likely to be resistant to some degree, making rapid increase to protect yourself against losses, and making those increases informed by mite-resistance evaluations.

    I'd make the working assumption: I have to breed well or will likely fail. Then work hard at finding out how best to go about it.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  18. #78
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,913

    Default Re: Successful Treatment Free BeeKeeping = Breeding from Survivor stock

    I don't think any of that applies to Solomon and his success because his neighbour is a commercial queen breeder whose drones hugely outnumber Solomon's.

    Could it be something else?

    Michael Bush has a different view.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  19. #79
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Ashland County, Wi. USA
    Posts
    14

    Default Re: Successful Treatment Free BeeKeeping = Breeding from Survivor stock

    I don't know what all the rest of you have experienced, but with no treatments (on large cell size) I lost all my bees whenever I wouldn't treat for a couple of years. But finally I lost them even after treating with Apistan. It was obvious that the mites had built resistance. I've heard of big outfits losing their entire operation WHILE treating with Apistan or CheckMite. So we have reached the point where whether you treat or not, they all die anyway quite often. I think the problem here comes down to us not wanting to "do nothing". We want to attack the problem and so we do whatever the experts tell us because we are desperate. But what they are telling us is failing anyway. Once I lost them all AFTER I treated them, I could no longer see any reason to treat them. Treating only perpetuates the problem. It breeds bees that can't survive whatever you are treating for, contaminates the comb and upsets the whole balance of the hive......http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm
    let him labor, working with his hands, that he may have something to give him who has need.." Ephesians 4:28

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