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  1. #1
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    Lightbulb Pure Breeding Without Artificial Insemination. Can This Work?

    Here goes my Lost Bee pure queen breeding idea in the same apiary.

    The only think I can think of that MAY WORK without artificial insemination
    is this. It may work or it may not. But it will be easy to find out it it works.
    I hope my wacky idea works for us all.

    1. Let's say your far away from other bee keepers, i.e 50+ miles. An island would be
    the idea closed breeding location.

    2. I'm going to use only two bee hives in an a apiary to simplify this example.
    If you have more hives than two please adjust it to your circumstance.

    3. Let's also say, that your two bee hives comprise of an Italian Bee
    hive and a Carniolan Bee hive. I figured using yellow bee and a black
    bee would make it easier to tell if my idea would work or not.

    3. Now, your queens are getting old (pretend 2 years) and you want
    to replace them with virgin queens from cells you raised or bought.
    Without the drones from the other hive in your apiary mating with
    her.

    4. Decide which hive you want mated first and get and raise a
    few virgin queens from queen cells from that hive in case the
    first virgin doesn't mate well,dies,etc.

    5. Temporarily bank the other virgin queens as an insurance policy.

    6. Pretend you want to breed your Italian queen first. This is what
    I would do. Since drones are the largest bees in the colony and
    queen extruder can keep a keep a queen from passing thru. I would
    devise a drone excluder cage using material something like a queen
    excluder, and place it on the Carniolan hive's entrance well after
    nightfall. Once the drones that flew during the day are back home.
    Hopefully, all straggler drones die. This would be done a few days
    before the Italian queens hatch or arrive if you bought them.

    7. This would keep the Carniolan drones confined inside their hive
    for the time being. Since you don't want them mating with your
    Italian virgin queen this is a good thing. This drone excluder cage
    wouldn't interfere with the Carniolan workers at all in their food
    gathering excursions. That being that a queen exluder don't
    stop them from passing.

    8. After you have proof that new eggs are being layed by
    your newly mated Italian queen you can remove your drone
    cage from the Carniolan hive and move on to phase two.

    7. Which is to raise a few queen cells from the Carniolan hive for
    breeding and a few days before the Carniolan virgin queen cells
    hatch, you put the drone cage onto your Italian hive again long
    after nightfall like you did previously with the Italian hive.

    8. Now you Italian drones are confined and your Italian workers
    can still go about their work. Now virgin Carniolan queen can go
    on her mating flight in a few days with her carniolan drones to mate.
    without any Italian drones mixing in.

    9. Finally, after you have proof that new eggs are being layed by
    your newly mated Carniolan queen you can remove your drone
    cage from the Italian hive.

    I got the idea in part from reading about drone excluders on this site.

    http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/excl...es.html#dronex

    I imagine this would all work if you dont have feral bees
    or another beekeeper nearby as well.

    The only other thing I can think of right now that may interfere
    with keeping your bee races pure is that if one of your newly mated
    queens dies at a later date, an a superceding queen is born, you
    don't catch it in time, and she now mates with any other hive.

    At least, it's idea to think of for those who can't afford
    artificial insemination and/or have a qualified person to do.

    If this all works out I wonder how long it will be before an apiary
    supplier comes out with drone excluders in their catalog?
    I know that would buy one. I bet a drone excluder may keep
    out mice, moths and possibly large hornets out of the hive
    as well.


    I have probably started an avalanche of stinging frenzy with this idea.
    Last edited by Lost Bee; 10-31-2011 at 10:02 AM.
    There's 10 chefs in a kitchen and still not one will tell you how to boil water unless there's something in it for them.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Pure Breeding Without Artificial Insemination. Can This Work?

    Colonies will allow any drone to enter a hive, can you be sure all the drones in any given hive came from that queen ?
    Poppy's Bees, Queens, and Honey
    Mammoth Cave, KY

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Pure Breeding Without Artificial Insemination. Can This Work?

    It's just an idea thus far. I haven't said it would work 100%.
    There must be a few things to iron out in my idea. But at least,
    it's a seed for thought.

    Ok, if you want to go there A's Poppy. Why not have the drone excluder
    cages on the hives all of the time, except for breeding? It's not like the
    queen or workers can't pass thru a drone excluder. I'm also very sure
    that yellow Italian drones in a Carniolan hive would be very easy
    to spot and exclude, vice versa. It could also be a way to exclude
    moths, mice and large hornets year round.

    Thanx for your input A's Poppy.
    There's 10 chefs in a kitchen and still not one will tell you how to boil water unless there's something in it for them.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Pure Breeding Without Artificial Insemination. Can This Work?

    How about this. You put some drone comb in the hive you want pure queens from. You wait for the queen to lay eggs in it. You squeeze off a few drones to collect semen. You add a bit of diluted honey to the semen to activate it. you apply this to the newly laid eggs in the drone comb. You either transfer them when they hatch or turn the comb flatways so they will treat them as queen cells, and voila, pure bred queens...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Pure Breeding Without Artificial Insemination. Can This Work?

    Mr. Bush, isn't this almost like artificial insemination? Ok there's no needles, microscopes,etc.
    But it is an artificial mating of sorts, no? I'll have to archive that technique for later.

    One question, if it was that easy why would artificial insemination exits?
    There's 10 chefs in a kitchen and still not one will tell you how to boil water unless there's something in it for them.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Pure Breeding Without Artificial Insemination. Can This Work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    You add a bit of diluted honey to the semen to activate it. you apply this to the newly laid eggs in the drone comb. You either transfer them when they hatch or turn the comb flatways so they will treat them as queen cells, and voila, pure bred queens...
    Seriously Mike? Or are you having us on?
    Mark Berninghausen "That which works, persists."

  7. #7
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Pure Breeding Without Artificial Insemination. Can This Work?

    Thanks MB LOL

    I Officially give up on this thread !!!!
    Poppy's Bees, Queens, and Honey
    Mammoth Cave, KY

  8. #8
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    Spokane, Washington, USA
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    Default Re: Pure Breeding Without Artificial Insemination. Can This Work?

    #1 wherewill you find an isolated place in California?
    #2 Queens are not supposed to mate with drones from their hives...
    #3 AI works well and many people use it. Less Headache with AI just a bit expensive
    #4 If you have 2 breeds in a single place no matter how you restrict the drones of Italians they still will get into the Carniolan Gene pool

  9. #9
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    Hamilton, Alabama
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    Default Re: Pure Breeding Without Artificial Insemination. Can This Work?

    Read Steve Taber's "Breeding Super Bees". He has an extensive writeup about ways to manipulate drone eggs including how to artificially fertilize them.

    Lost, your idea was used 100 years ago. it was how proof was given that queens mated multiple times on more than one flight. You can find the references about the island of Volcano.

    DarJones
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Pure Breeding Without Artificial Insemination. Can This Work?

    I understood that drones seek DCA near their hives.
    Queens, seek DCA much futher away from the hive.

    IF that is the case that is how they avoid natural inbreeding.
    Old Guy in Alabama

  11. #11
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Pure Breeding Without Artificial Insemination. Can This Work?

    Here's one example: (1949)
    USDA Bureau of Entomology and Plant Quarantine,
    Division of Bee Culture
    Madison, Wisconsin
    Period: Jul 1 – Sep 30, 1949

    ABSTRACT: At the start of the season the bees on Kelleys Island were in excellent condition. However, there was little nectar available throughout the summer, handicapping the production of queens severely. Approximately 1,500 queens were produced and distributed for testing. Large quantities of sugar syrup will need to be fed to insure satisfactory wintering of the colonies. More cases of paralysis were observed this summer than during any previous year. With one exception, all colonies suffering from paralysis were headed by (S-10 x W39)x(A18 x 16-3) queens, which suggests a stock weakness.

    Page #2 Progress and Status of Work. “Kelleys Island Queen Production Project” A 20′ x 40′ portable insulated steel building was erected late in June to facilitate the project. The bees were in excellent condition at the start of the season. Queen rearing go off to a good start. However, except for a brief honey flow from sumac, there was little nectar available throughout the summer, which handicapped the production of queens severely.
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  12. #12
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    VENTURA, California, USA
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    Default Re: Pure Breeding Without Artificial Insemination. Can This Work?

    Here are some examples of isolated places in California
    Channel Islands National Park (U.S. National Park Service)
    Close to the California mainland, yet worlds apart, Channel Islands National Park encompasses five remarkable islands (Anacapa, Santa Cruz, Santa Rosa, San Miguel ...
    Santa Catalina too!
    Ernie
    My websitehttp://bees4u.com/

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Pure Breeding Without Artificial Insemination. Can This Work?

    >One question, if it was that easy why would artificial insemination exits?

    Because the end results are different. If you artificially inseminate, you do that once and the queen lays the eggs of the genetics you want. If you fertilize each egg, you are having to do so for each resulting queen (plus a few that don't make it) and that queen still has to mate (or you have to continue to fertilize the eggs). However it does simplify some of it as you can get pure genetics (where you control both sides) in the queen herself without the expense and time to learn II. Yes, I was serious, and no I did not invent it, but I know a few people who have experimented with it.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Pure Breeding Without Artificial Insemination. Can This Work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    How about this. You put some drone comb in the hive you want pure queens from. You wait for the queen to lay eggs in it. You squeeze off a few drones to collect semen. You add a bit of diluted honey to the semen to activate it. you apply this to the newly laid eggs in the drone comb. You either transfer them when they hatch or turn the comb flatways so they will treat them as queen cells, and voila, pure bred queens...
    Why do you need the drone comb?
    Why does putting drone semen and honey onto eggs create a purebred?

    Adam

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Pure Breeding Without Artificial Insemination. Can This Work?

    >Why do you need the drone comb?

    So you can get unfertilized eggs and then fertilize them with the drone source of your choice.

    >Why does putting drone semen and honey onto eggs create a purebred?

    Because you had control of the queen (you choose her) and the drone semen (you chose him) so you control both sides of the breeding. It's as purebred as your choices.
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Pure Breeding Without Artificial Insemination. Can This Work?

    "It's as purebred as your choices."

    Very true. For bees, more so than most because the drone has a single set of chromosomes. This means the queen that lays the drone eggs contributes 2 sets of chromosomes and the drone that supplies the semen provides 1 set. This allows you to produce a group of super sister queens who all share exactly the same genes from the drone and who segregate in contribution from the egg laying queen.

    DarJones
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  17. #17
    Join Date
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    Cole County, Missouri
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    Default Re: Pure Breeding Without Artificial Insemination. Can This Work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post
    >One question, if it was that easy why would artificial insemination exits?

    Because the end results are different. If you artificially inseminate, you do that once and the queen lays the eggs of the genetics you want. If you fertilize each egg, you are having to do so for each resulting queen (plus a few that don't make it) and that queen still has to mate (or you have to continue to fertilize the eggs). However it does simplify some of it as you can get pure genetics (where you control both sides) in the queen herself without the expense and time to learn II. Yes, I was serious, and no I did not invent it, but I know a few people who have experimented with it.
    Dont understand continue to fertilize eggs.
    Last edited by beeG; 11-02-2011 at 09:38 AM. Reason: because

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Pure Breeding Without Artificial Insemination. Can This Work?

    Quote Originally Posted by RAK View Post
    #1 wherewill you find an isolated place in California?

    I'm not from California, or from the US for that matter. Unless you were talking to someone else.
    There's 10 chefs in a kitchen and still not one will tell you how to boil water unless there's something in it for them.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Pure Breeding Without Artificial Insemination. Can This Work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Bush View Post

    So you can get unfertilized eggs and then fertilize them with the drone source of your choice.
    After thinking some more even if this all worked Mr. Bush like you say
    I gather this would amount to no more than queen raising. Which is
    not queen breeding. Queen from cells still have to be mated you know?
    Even if she flew away to mate like in my imaginary apiary she could be
    mated with bees from the other hive and it's not pure race breeding,
    is it?

    If this egg was fertilized like you say would create a mated queen by
    a freak of nature. I'm sure this queen would only have a tiniest amount
    of semen as only one drone was used. So either way it isn't mating like
    I planned if at all.

    So it would not be properly mated like a natural mated queen with
    her 10+ drones. It would turn out to be a drone layer at best and/or
    be rejected soon enough by the older workers.

    I see a lot's of queen rearing information on the Net.
    Actual queen breeding is something less prevalent.

    While on the subject of of bee breeding. Does anyone where
    I can find a book where the author explains crosses with other
    races and what happened when he crossed,etc. ? I have seen
    enough queen rearing so this ain't what I call breeding.

    Bee breeding and queen rearing are not the same.
    Queen rearing is the process of producing queen honey bees.
    Bee breeding is the process of mating where genetic material
    is combined from two or more sources. (polyandry)
    There's 10 chefs in a kitchen and still not one will tell you how to boil water unless there's something in it for them.

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Pure Breeding Without Artificial Insemination. Can This Work?

    The purpose of fertilizing drone eggs is to have total control of the queen that laid the eggs and of the drone that produced the semen to fertilize the eggs. It ONLY takes one sperm cell to fertilize the egg.

    Why would you want to do this?

    If you want to produce queens with very specific traits that are easily visible, then this is a method that works. The resulting queens could for example be used to head colonies that would be used to produce drones which would be used in a mating yard. Under those conditions, you don't care what drones these queens have mated with, the drones they produce will ALL be from unfertilized eggs.

    I really don't like using the cordovan trait in an example, but this is a case where it is very visible and a viable example. Lets say you have 2 cordovan queens. These queens mated with a mix of drones none of which are cordovan. You want to raise some pure cordovan queens. No problem, just harvest some drone eggs from one of the queens and grab a cordovan drone from the second queen. Fertilize the eggs with semen from the cordovan drone. Voila, pure cordovan queens.

    DarJones
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

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