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  1. #101
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
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    45,379

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    >>Michael Bush - Immediate success on small cell foundation.
    >Actually on fully drawn small cell comb (wax dipped PermaComb). Foundation is a different matter altogether.

    That was merely a way to get them regressed instantly. If you have small cell (or natural comb < 4.9mm in the core) drawn comb the results are the same. But yes, wax foundation is different. However, the PF120s I've used were drawn perfectly and were almost as fast (they just had to draw it but it was right on the first try).
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  2. #102
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    surrey bc canada
    Posts
    2

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Immediate success on small cell foundation? I'm for that, going down in two steps is time consuming. I have fully drawn Dadant plastic frames, SC, but oddly with BC spacing. Is there a source of 4.9 plastic foundation that snaps into wooden frames? My success so far, taking five of my my twenty plus hives down to 4.9 has been fraught with failure, largely my fault, however I will continue and for many reasons, Varroa control being high on the list. My main interest however is secured on my firm belief that the bee in SC format is going to be a tougher bee with a stronger immune system. I can't believe Boudoux did this to us and that it hasn't been common knowledge. This experience has soured my perception of the scientific community.

  3. #103
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Denver, Colorado
    Posts
    5,033

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by rsm bristow View Post
    Is there a source of 4.9 plastic foundation that snaps into wooden frames?
    There was, but it was a total failure. Still makes me wonder how it got to market, was there no testing? Now the best option for plastic are the Mann Lake plastic frames.
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  4. #104
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    surrey bc canada
    Posts
    2

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Thanks, I am trying to keep costs down, Mann Lake plastic might be the only choice and so be it.

  5. #105

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by rsm bristow View Post
    Thanks, I am trying to keep costs down, Mann Lake plastic might be the only choice and so be it.
    I think plastic and honey production is not a good combination. I wonder what is the material, how is it tested? Does the supplier of the raw material know that this plastic for honeybee hive frames must stand acids (Varroa treatments) and high temperatures (renewal) for years and years? It is probably just approved to store food supplies(short time storage in room temperatures). But I suppose you in US donīt hustle with such details...

  6. #106
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    5,686

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    > this plastic for honeybee hive frames must stand acids (Varroa treatments) and high temperatures
    >
    But I suppose you in US donīt hustle with such details...

    Rarely does life offer us perfect choices. Plastic may not be perfect, but neither is using wax foundation. Beeswax used in commercially available foundation comes from older hives, and reflects treatments/chemicals applied to those hives. A study of that topic:
    Almost all comb and foundation wax samples (98%) were contaminated with up to 204 and 94 ppm, respectively, of fluvalinate and coumaphos, and lower amounts of amitraz degradates and chlorothalonil, with an average of 6 pesticide detections per sample and a high of 39.

    Read the rest here:
    http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0009754
    That study used foundation samples purchased in North America. Finland may have different issues.

    This page from a Swiss researcher suggests that commercial beeswax is contaminated worldwide:
    http://www.bee-hexagon.net/files/fil...x/WaxBook2.pdf

    .
    Last edited by Rader Sidetrack; 12-02-2013 at 12:10 PM.
    -- Victor Hugo -- "Common sense is in spite of, not the result of, education.”

  7. #107

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rader Sidetrack View Post
    > this plastic for honeybee hive frames must stand acids (Varroa treatments) and high temperatures
    >
    But I suppose you in US donīt hustle with such details...

    Rarely does life offer us perfect choices. Plastic may not be perfect, but neither is using wax foundation. Beeswax used in commercially available foundation comes from older hives, and reflects treatments/chemicals applied to those hives. A study of that topic:

    Thats why I circulate my own wax and donīt treat.

  8. #108
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Lincolnton, NC
    Posts
    1,099

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    How common is treatment free beekeeping in Finland? How successful have you & others been?
    Lawrence Heafner
    15 hives; 15 years; TF for 10; Zone 7B

  9. #109

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by heaflaw View Post
    How common is treatment free beekeeping in Finland? How successful have you & others been?
    As far as I know, there is one other beekeeper. He is cutting drone brood regularly (5-6 hole Langstroth frames/hive/summer) and he is using small cells. (I have normal cells and do not cut drone brood).

    My work has been documented in Internet: www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.htm All ups and downs are there. At the moment all hives seem normal and healthy, although they are smaller compared to what they used to be 12 years ago.
    There has been lots of curiosity towards my work, some resistance too, but I suppose a big part of beekeepers do not care or believe it is possible.

    In the beginning I actually thought, that our long winter(no flying for 6 months) is a helping factor, because about 40% of the mites (and almost the same amount of bees?) dye from each hive. But in reality, the reproduction power in summer is so high, that Iīm not sure if long winter offers any help. We have a huge AFB problem in Finland and viruses kill hives in some areas even if there are no mites.

  10. #110

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    same post twice... please remove this, I couldnīt

  11. #111
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Nehawka, Nebraska USA
    Posts
    45,379

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    >>Almost all comb and foundation wax samples (98%) were contaminated with up to 204 and 94 ppm, respectively, of fluvalinate and coumaphos, and lower amounts of amitraz degradates and chlorothalonil, with an average of 6 pesticide detections per sample and a high of 39.

    >That study used foundation samples purchased in North America. Finland may have different issues.

    Since the use of amitraz, fluvalinate, coumaphos, terramycin, fumidil and tylosin are all illegal in the EU, Australia, New Zealand and a large part of the rest of the world, it would probably be different...
    Michael Bush bushfarms.com/bees.htm "Everything works if you let it." ThePracticalBeekeeper.com 40y 200h 37yTF

  12. #112
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
    Posts
    5,686

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    There does appear to be a global marketplace for beeswax. For instance, this report on "Honey and Other Bee Products in the European Union" has this regarding EU wax imports from China:

    Beeswax imports also fluctuated in the period 2003-2007. Due to a decline in beekeeping after the EU ban on Chinese honey, supplies from China were low at the beginning of the review period. Since then, tight supplies from China have led to strong price increases and the future of this market is uncertain, as imports of beeswax are erratic and the market is saturated.

    http://www.fepat.org.ar/files/eventos/759630.pdf

    -- Victor Hugo -- "Common sense is in spite of, not the result of, education.”

  13. #113
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,197

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Unfortunately, wax from chemical free colonies is in short supply.
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  14. #114
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,250

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Is there a market for chemical-free wax?
    Ray--1 year, 7 hives, TF

  15. #115
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,720

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Yes there is. My country sells it, it is sought after, and it commands a good price.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  16. #116
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Hamilton, Alabama
    Posts
    1,197

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    My daughter uses wax from my colonies to make a very good hand cream. It is a mix of shea butter, cocoa butter, beeswax, jojoba oil, and some creaming materials that make it hold a small amount of water. Put it on your hands and it gives immediate relief from dryness and cracking. The drawing point for it is that all ingredients are natural products. This includes the beeswax which I produce.
    DarJones - 44 years, 10 colonies (max 40), sideliner, treatment free since 2005, 11 frame broodnest, small cell

  17. #117
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Lincolnton, NC
    Posts
    1,099

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Juhani,

    Very interesting and well documented information and good observations on your site. I learned quite a lot. Thanks.


    [QUOTE=Juhani Lunden;1025746]
    My work has been documented in Internet: www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.htm
    Lawrence Heafner
    15 hives; 15 years; TF for 10; Zone 7B

  18. #118
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,250

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Yes, very interesting!

    I expect someone will be along soon to tell you all the reasons why you could not possibly have succeeded in developing resistant bees, but I find your chronicle to be very encouraging. It wasn't easy, obviously, but you're another beekeeper who did it.

    I got the impression that the lower productivity of your bees was the greatest drawback to the stock you've developed. It seems possible to me that as long as your bees aren't dying and some are somewhat productive, maybe a greater number of colonies could be an interim answer. I guess that would require a greater investment in woodenware, but I understand that Finland has a fair amount of wood.
    Ray--1 year, 7 hives, TF

  19. #119

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Thank you for the encouragement!

    Its all about money and time. To be a part time beekeeper has its pros and cons: on the other hand I have the possibility to lose money and on the other hand I really cannot have much more hives (no time and cannot afford to lose even more...) For years I have made so many nucs as I possibly can, but still the number of hives has remained lower than it originally was. In Finland summer is 2-3 months and honey crop often 1 week. The nucs have to be strong before the 6 months winter comes. First night frosts in the beginning of September. Thats somewhat tricky combination to make nucs, but I agree, I need more hives.

    Earlier I was more worried about the effect on general productivity of resistant bees(smaller hives, taking of brood etc.), but today Iīm more optimistic. My goal for the next 12 years is to restore the honey crops I used to harvest.

  20. #120
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
    Posts
    5,720

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Wow a one week flow!

    You have my respect Juhani, I don't think I would have the skill to run hives treatment free, and build enough replacements to maintain numbers, working with a one week flow.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

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