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  1. #61
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    BeeWeaver open mates Italian/Buckfast queens with the 'Hybrid Swarm' found in Texas.
    Could that be described differently as simply 'a resistant mongrel feral population'. (It isn't helpful when people make up half-baked descriptions using scientific terms wrongly).

    So Beeweaver mates bees of different lines and races with raised levels of productivity with resistant feral bees.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    So, they're taking advantage of Hybrid Vigor.
    Not quite - or rather, sort of. But pretty much only in the way that occurs naturally among mixed/mongrel populations. They might be limiting outmating to the first generation, which might increase the likelihood of hybrid vigour (in its proper sense). But any further breeding done from resultant populations couldn't be described as such. (And given the multiple mating occurring its all rather vague anyway)

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    However, after 20 years, I believe that that are a significant number of resistant feral colonies here in the U.S.
    And the 'Texas hybrid swarm' is simply a spectrum of populations composed of just such colonies.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    So, there is a free source of resistant bees, and you have a good chance of obtaining resistant stock ASAP.
    Yes. Bait hives in the right sorts of places, cut-out, swarms from the right sorts of places. But don't take so many you undercut them...

    And (as if it were that easy!) try to discourage others from treating anywhere near them.

    Mike (UK)
    Last edited by mike bispham; 11-13-2013 at 08:10 AM.
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  2. #62
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    Feb 2012
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    Colorado Springs, CO United States
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by David LaFerney View Post
    I haven't seen those videos, but it sounds like great work. The question is how do they work out in customer operations in other locations?

    Anybody have them?
    They hold their own in our operation, and still don't need to be treated, imagine that
    Last edited by fieldsofnaturalhoney; 11-13-2013 at 01:04 PM.

  3. #63
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by fieldsofnaturalhoney View Post
    They hold their own in our operation, and still don't need treated, imagine that
    very good fonh. how old is your oldest tf colony using weaver's genetics? (not counting any that had to be requeened)
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  4. #64
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    Colorado Springs, CO United States
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Three hives headed by Weaver's genetics, this will be their third winter. Never requeened, produced enough honey that I felt comfortable taking, the second and third year.

  5. #65
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    excellent. thanks for the reply.
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  6. #66
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    Cookeville, TN, USA
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    How is their disposition?
    since '09-25H-T-Z6b

  7. #67
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    Colorado Springs, CO United States
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by David LaFerney View Post
    How is their disposition?
    Let's call them a little more curious than other hives, but not run you out of the hive/yard mean. Although, sometimes I think they have memory . I know two of the hives hive superseded their mother since their installation.

  8. #68
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Yes the comments I've seen re weaver queens show quite a bit of variability, everything from totally docile to bees that start stinging you before you even got out of the vehicle. They must still have a wide genetic base and don't have some of the traits totally fixed yet or all of the less desirable genetics fully excised.

    I think Weavers would have a chuckle reading this thread, they would have to read up all the knowledgeable theories about themselves so they can find out what they are doing LOL.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  9. #69
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    My own thoughts on BeeWeaver hives is that they are supposed to be re-queened regularly, in theory at least.

    It's the same thing with open mated queens in similar areas.

    Otherwise, they'll become more feral and less domesticated over time.

    However, since I don't have that kind of an issue, there's the other side of the coin.

    Their resistance genetics becomes more diluted, with the possibility of them becoming more defensive, over time.

    I ordered the queens marked and clipped so that I can avoid any possible issues.

    All I have to do is order a new queen if I need to.

    I do think that there's a difference in the early vs late mated queens depending on which type of drones, hybrid swarm vs domestic, are flying at the time the queens are mated.

    That's the advantage of getting 'store bought' resistant, hybrid bees.

    You know the genetics of the queen (Italian/Buckfast), and they do the hybridizing for you.

    It's treatment free beekeeping by credit card.

  10. #70
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    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by fieldsofnaturalhoney View Post
    Let's call them a little more curious than other hives, but not run you out of the hive/yard mean. Although, sometimes I think they have memory . I know two of the hives hive superseded their mother since their installation.
    I had a BeeWeaver queen superceded a couple months or so after installation. Both the queen mother and the new queen produced placid bees, but if the BeeWeaver queen produces a hot hive, they will send you a replacement.

  11. #71
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    May 2009
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    Canterbry, UK
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    My own thoughts on BeeWeaver hives is that they are supposed to be re-queened regularly, in theory at least. Otherwise, they'll become more feral and less domesticated over time.
    I suppose everyone can decide for themself depending on setting (re. thriving ferals or not) and the amount of productivitity that matters to them. It'll be different in each case. Of course nearby treated apriaries will necessitate re-queening from elsewhere.

    Personally I'd prefer to be doing my own breeding - for local acclimatisation.

    I suppose we should note that Weaver's advice is probably aimed at commercial operations, where regular requeening from bred stock, and/or first generation open/local with a 'breeder queen' is often the norm.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    However, since I don't have that kind of an issue, there's the other side of the coin.

    Their resistance genetics becomes more diluted, with the possibility of them becoming more defensive, over time.
    As for resistance, again, it depends of the local drones. As for defensisveness, you can breed away if you feel the need.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    I do think that there's a difference in the early vs late mated queens depending on which type of drones, hybrid swarm vs domestic, are flying at the time the queens are mated.
    Interesting. There is an argument in the offing here for natural reproduction - let 'em swarm and catch-em. Whenever we make increase on our timescale we risk spoiling this business of different mating periods. What sorts of difference have you noticed?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    That's the advantage of getting 'store bought' resistant, hybrid bees. You know the genetics of the queen (Italian/Buckfast), and they do the hybridizing for you. It's treatment free beekeeping by credit card.
    If they were available to me I might be tempted to bring in their genetics. But as high productivity isn't my sole aim I'm content to be working with local survivors, and curious to see what I can make of them.

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    "Interesting. There is an argument in the offing here for natural reproduction - let 'em swarm and catch-em. Whenever we make increase on our timescale we risk spoiling this business of different mating periods. What sorts of difference have you noticed?"

    Mike:

    Dr. Delaney from the University of Delaware recently stated that different populations, feral vs managed, were mating at different times, early vs late.

    It's an evolutionary mechanism known to produce speciation or new species (reproductive isolation).

    I was astonished to hear that we have distinct populations of Honeybees here in the U.S. that have been observed carrying out this process.

    It's evidence of evolution occurring in Honeybees.

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Dr. Delaney from the University of Delaware recently stated that different populations, feral vs managed, were mating at different times, early vs late.
    Yes, I saw it there too. I wondered if you'd actually noticed any differences.

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    It's an evolutionary mechanism known to produce speciation or new species (reproductive isolation).

    I was astonished to hear that we have distinct populations of Honeybees here in the U.S. that have been observed carrying out this process.

    It's evidence of evolution occurring in Honeybees.
    As if that were needed! More like 'evidence of another mechanism of evolutionary change in honeybees'.

    It is fascinating, and potentially very useful. Do you recall the details - when the preferred mating of US ferals is occurring?

    Mike (UK)
    Anti-husbandry: Medication + Reproduction = Continuing Sickness
    http://www.suttonjoinery.co.uk/CCD/

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    The details were not actually mentioned.

    Also, I have not seen her other research, but just the you tube video did not offer any proof of different populations mating at different times. It was a hypothesis.

    The reality, in my experience, and I do have experience, is that 3 of the breeds she mentioned being AMM carniolan and Italian, all interbreed freely.

    The basis for the hypothesis as presented in the video, was that the bees in the forest had different matriarchal lines, as shown by mitochondrial DNA, to the managed hives around the forest. But of course they did. The bees in the forest had AMM mitochondrial ancestry, the managed hives around the forest were moved in recently and had different matriarchal ancestry.

    That this proved there are two different populations not interbreeding was not shown, at least in the video. My suspicion is it is a personal hobbyhorse, but without much foundation in fact. Many researchers feel the need to have some point of difference, discovery, or some such thing, to distinguish themselves from the masses.

    Mike as you consider yourself something of an expert in the field of genetics I am surprised you did not pick up on this.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  15. #75
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    Sep 2008
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    Mtn. View, Arkansas, USA
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    When the U. of Arkansas did their study of the bees of Arkansas, they found samples of DNA from all the races of bees that have been imported into the U.S.A. They were not pure, all of the colonies were a mix, with the majority being Italian/Carniolan/Caucasian. There was one or two small areas in the state that had colonies that were mostly Black Bees/Italian/Carniolan.

    The different geographical races have some variation in mating. The African drones fly at different times than do Italians, this has been reported in the Black Bee also. The Black Bee queens are reported to mate closer to their own apiary than do queens that are mostly Italian.

    I wondered when I saw the video if Delaney was saying the colonies were pure, or if they were mixed. It seamed most of the audience thought she was saying they were pure, but knowing honey bees, I doubt they were of pure race.

  16. #76
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    Cookeville, TN, USA
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    I had a BeeWeaver queen superceded a couple months or so after installation. Both the queen mother and the new queen produced placid bees, but if the BeeWeaver queen produces a hot hive, they will send you a replacement.
    That's good to know. Thanks.

    How are they doing so far?
    since '09-25H-T-Z6b

  17. #77
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    Dec 2012
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    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    They're doing okay. This was a late summer split, and they're filling a 5 over 5 nuc. The plan is to split them again in late January, to have a couple nucs to haul north from the BeeWeaver stock.

    I'm a beginner, so this was a perfect example of a beginner screwup. I found supercedure cells in the original split, on two different frames, so split them again. I did not give them enough time, and fell into a panic when I got no eggs within what I thought a reasonable time in one of the splits. I assumed one queen had not made it back. and since I'd had another hive that took 6 weeks to cure of laying workers, and didn't want to repeat that miserable experience, I combined the 2 nucs. A couple days later I had brood in both top and bottom, so I think I probably wasted a queen and could have had 2 hybrid BeeWeaver nucs to split in the spring.

    Live and learn.

  18. #78
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    Cookeville, TN, USA
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Thanks to everyone for your input on this thread so far, and I hope people will continue to contribute.

    I have made the presentation that I mentioned in the thread starter, and posted my notes for it as a companion article on our association website if anyone is interested. Varroa mite management options of honey bees

    Again, thanks.
    since '09-25H-T-Z6b

  19. #79

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    David...not a big deal but ApiLife Var should not be used if the daytime temps exceed 90 F.
    See page three...listed under Restrictions:
    http://www.ncagr.gov/SPCAP/pesticide...ApiLifeVAR.pdf
    Dan www.boogerhillbee.com
    Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Thanks i'll make that edit when i get back to a computer.
    since '09-25H-T-Z6b

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