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  1. #301
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Well, it's a good thing most of are keeping bees as a hobby, etc. .

    I think that it's safe to say that there are some advantages to keeping TF tower hives.

    Especially since you can only keep two hives in many municipalities.

    Six singles= 6 tops and bottoms. Two ,3 deep towers = 2 tops and bottoms.

    Saved some money right there.

    I still think it's possible to get high honey yields with the right bees in a TF tower though.

  2. #302
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Rader, Greene County, Tennessee, USA
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    6,365

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    Saved some money right there.

    I still think it's possible to get high honey yields with the right bees in a TF tower though.
    "... high honey yields ..."

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    We don't all keep bees for the honey.
    If "saving money" is one of your goals, why not harvest and sell some honey?



    Graham
    --- Practical reality trumps philosophy!

  3. #303
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    I did get a good yield, however I left it on the tower hive as stores. I'll get to it soon.

    I can see why some folks would, when restricted to two hives, prefer to use a 3 deep/tower, configuration.

    It could be a good way for some hobbyist TFers to keep bees.

  4. #304
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    Menomonee Falls, Wis.
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    2,729

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    So I went to the Southeastren Indiana site, scrolled down to the Tim Ives article, and looked at the picture, WHERE ARE THE BEES!!!!!! And no upper entrances? How do the bees get the honey to the top box? And keep it Cool?

    Crazy Roland

  5. #305
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    Feb 2010
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    I offsetted my supers for that reason.

  6. #306
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    6,023

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    50% drone sperm viability from miticide treated hives. 90% drone sperm viability from hives without miticides.
    I think you just made that up.

    It is not correct.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  7. #307
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    6,023

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    Good grief. There seems to be an awful lot of analysis in the absence of actual data going on here.
    But I have the data. I heard it right here on Beesource.

    I was told Tim's hive make 400+lb's , average, annually.

    This was the great shining example. The reason treatment free is superior. That's how it was presented.

    Since you were one of the people saying it Ray, I suspect you may recall.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  8. #308
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    6,023

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    I am more and more convinced that he's got a bit of creative accounting. I'll certainly admit to a form of it.
    LOL.

    When a person divides their honey crop by the top 20% of their hives, and compares that number to the state average, and claims they are above state average, when the state average is calculated by dividing crop by ALL of the hives in the state dinks included, calling that method of accounting "creative", is, well, creative.

    Not talking about Tim by the way.

    If everybody was that "creative", it would be very hard to find anybody at all in the state, who was not well above state average.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  9. #309
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,317

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldtimer View Post
    I think you just made that up.

    It is not correct.
    That 50% vs 90% drone sperm viability for miticide treated vs untreated hives was from someone's research.

    I didn't make it up.

    Nor did I make up the high supercedure rate for queens. Half of them don't last past 6 months.

  10. #310
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    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    So the research exists somewhere?
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  11. #311
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Herrick, SD USA
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    4,455

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by WLC View Post
    That 50% vs 90% drone sperm viability for miticide treated vs untreated hives was from someone's research.

    I didn't make it up.

    Nor did I make up the high supercedure rate for queens. Half of them don't last past 6 months.
    I don't have any trouble believing that some miticides may impact drone viability or that queen supercedures are increasing but can you give us something more? Like which miticides (they are hardly all alike) and how often they are applied. The increased queen supercedure rate may well bean an ofshoot of drone problems but surely you would agree it isn't the only potential culprit. We mate a lot of queens each year and as I posted earlier none of our queens or drones during the matings have ever been present when a miticide has been applied. What I have experienced is an ebb and flow of success not when measured not by the initial matings (which consistently run in the 80 to 85% range) but in attrition as the summer progresses. Some years matings are clearly better than other years. I am open to all theories as to why this might be the case.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  12. #312
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    27,670

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    It would have helped if WLC had linked to the text which he sort of quoted. It's on Bee-L under "Spermatheca Capacity/Queen Longevity".

    Peter Loring Borst replied w/ an article he wrote for ABJ. That's where the quote came from.

    I need to learn how to do links.
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  13. #313
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    Feb 2006
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    Herrick, SD USA
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  14. #314
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    syracuse n.y.
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by sqkcrk View Post

    Peter Loring Borst replied w/ an article he wrote for ABJ. That's where the quote came from.

    I need to learn how to do links.
    http://community.lsoft.com/scripts/w...&F=&S=&P=59872

    to do links on bee-l and have them work, you have to log out from you id, then go back on without being logged in. then just cut and paste the link from the top while your in the message.

    wish they would say which miticides?

    This possibility was further emphasized in the subsequent presentation by Juliana Rangel, from the North Carolina University at Raleigh. Juliana presented statistics which indicate that beekeepers attribute their losses to CCD at 9%, varroa at 24%, but queen failure at 31%, making it their worst problem. She pointed directly at the connection between miticides and sperm viability. In fact, her studies indicated that queens mated by drones with low quality sperm may actually increase the number of drones with which they mate to compensate.

    I'm slowing down Jim got me by a Minute
    mike syracuse ny
    I went to bed mean, and woke up meaner. Marshal Dillon

  15. #315
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    Feb 2006
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    Herrick, SD USA
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    That's an interesting post by Mr. Borst, all quite believable to me and supportive of my long held opinion that beekeeper applied miticides may well be a bigger problem than many want to believe. This is, however, still presented largely as Mr. Borst's opinion (someone whose opinion I respect may I add). What isn't answered here is which miticides might be the biggest culprits and whether avoiding any miticide use during the lead up to the queen mating season might well alleviate or at least lessen the problem.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  16. #316
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Maybe you should ask for details on bee-L. "?"
    Mark Berninghausen To combat Ebola, please consider supporting http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org


  17. #317
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    syracuse n.y.
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    Some years matings are clearly better than other years. I am open to all theories as to why this might be the case.
    do you have any other beeks hives within flight distance of your hatching queens? I find the miticide thing interesting, I had no problem getting 3 years out of my queens using the same Miticides I'm using now, but my hives were isolated, now in N.Y. with no isolation using pretty much the same chemicals, although going from miteway II to MAQS, and apiguard, my queens are not lasting as long, on average. Of course the flows are soooo much better in N.Y. that could use up the queens faster! to many variables, to much fun
    mike syracuse ny
    I went to bed mean, and woke up meaner. Marshal Dillon

  18. #318
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    Feb 2006
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    Herrick, SD USA
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by wildbranch2007 View Post
    do you have any other beeks hives within flight distance of your hatching queens? I find the miticide thing interesting, I had no problem getting 3 years out of my queens using the same Miticides I'm using now, but my hives were isolated, now in N.Y. with no isolation using pretty much the same chemicals, although going from miteway II to MAQS, and apiguard, my queens are not lasting as long, on average. Of course the flows are soooo much better in N.Y. that could use up the queens faster! to many variables, to much fun
    I'm not aware of any, our drone force should be the overwhelming majority though in the wilds of east Texas there are no certainties.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  19. #319
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,648

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    jim, have you had long enough off synthetic miticides to rotate your old wax out?
    journaling the growth of a treatment free apiary started in 2010. 20+/- hives

  20. #320
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by squarepeg View Post
    jim, have you had long enough off synthetic miticides to rotate your old wax out?
    We haven't used such miticides for at least 8 years now but still have a significant number of old combs that no doubt contain residues. The fact remains, though, we have had summers with virtually no queen attrition to speak of in recent years and I certainly haven't seen numbers approaching those quoted by Mr. Borst.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

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