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  1. #281
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
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    Auckland,Auckland,New Zealand
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    5,446

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Hmm... And all this time I've been asking him questions, seeking out his advise, and thinking he gets more honey than me.

    I still think he has excellent powers of observation though, and is very tuned in to his bees.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  2. #282
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
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    Herrick, SD USA
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    4,033

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Even if you err on the high side of what "several" tons is, in this case 5, it still only comes out to 65 pound average.
    Gotta love that word several. I am reminded of the Seinfeld show when George discovered the term "yadda-yadda-yadda" to avoid having to be too specific.
    Your rudimentary calculations appear correct Barry. Seems like Tim talked about getting 14 full mediums off per hive and spoke of getting 200 pound averages on a bad year. (Graham you can correct me if I am wrong). Assuming 2013 was a bad year then, yes, he should have harvested a minimum of 15 tons. Is this all a bit "nit-picky"? Well given the fact that we have heard so many fantastic claims directly from Tim and given that his methods keep coming up in these treatment free conversations I dont think its unreasonable to wonder just where the truth lies. About the only independent report we have received is the one in which Randy Oliver stated that Tim had some booming hives in the heart of corn country. Guess we dont know how many. I would assume at least several.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  3. #283
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    Feb 2010
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    A queen's ovarioles (up to 300 of them) can produce an unlimited number of eggs which travel past the spermatheca (which stores the drone sperm) on their way to the vagina before being layed.

    The spermatheca themselves are maintained by the spermathecal gland which supplies nutrients to the sperm allowing them to survive for many years.

    Mated queens can have up to 50 million sperm.

    I can see how queens with superior mating, ovarioles, and spermatheca glands could be both long lived and very productive.

  4. #284
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Leominster, MA USA
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    165

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Have you ever been interviewed for a news story, read the final print version and wondered how the reporter came up with the statements they did that were attributed to you? Not saying that the reporter is mis-stating, just that there is always room for error.

    I would not rely on a news story if I were trying to get to the bottom of something.

    Ramona

  5. #285
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    24,438

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    I averaged 95 lbs from 4 hives this year.... but my total average was less than 30.....(REALLY bad year here)
    gm, either that means that you harvested 380 lbs from 4 hives and had a total of 12 or 13 which you only took honey from 4 or I don't know what. Is that right? You had 12, but only took honey from 4?
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  6. #286
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramona View Post
    Have you ever been interviewed for a news story, read the final print version and wondered how the reporter came up with the statements they did that were attributed to you? Not saying that the reporter is mis-stating, just that there is always room for error.

    I would not rely on a news story if I were trying to get to the bottom of something.

    Ramona
    Right you are Ramona. All we can count on is that Tim Ives' name was spelled correctly. That is something all news reporters are trained to do. I guess Tim doesn't have a middle name.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  7. #287
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
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    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    9,183

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramona View Post
    I would not rely on a news story if I were trying to get to the bottom of something.

    Ramona
    I don't think anyone is relying on it, just another piece of the puzzle that we're left trying to piece together. Of course Tim could answer himself, all the specifics asked.
    Regards, Barry

  8. #288
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    May 2009
    Location
    Flora,IL
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    2,649

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    I actually took honey from about 100..... some were effectively 0 and some were over 100. if i took my best 4 only in my count like has been done at times then my average was 95..... we could call the rest "support hives"

  9. #289
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    Feb 2006
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    Herrick, SD USA
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramona View Post
    Have you ever been interviewed for a news story, read the final print version and wondered how the reporter came up with the statements they did that were attributed to you? Not saying that the reporter is mis-stating, just that there is always room for error.

    I would not rely on a news story if I were trying to get to the bottom of something.

    Ramona
    I would agree Ramona (or maybe Dean?). I think you would agree, though, that Tim has made some incredible claims and confirmation can be a bit elusive. Would you consider it realistic for someone to lay out a business plan where one can expect to get a minimum of 200 pound averages and perhaps much more just by following Tims methods? Who else is doing it and succeeding? I dont think anyone here is saying that Tim and his methods haven't been successful or that Tim isnt a good beekeeper just that it may all be a bit exaggerated.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  10. #290
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    Jul 2010
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    jackson county, alabama, usa
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    4,042

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    http://www.plosone.org/article/fetch...esentation=PDF

    although the study did not find a correlation between virus titre and fecundity across the population of queens studied, the impact of of dead viruses on the health of the ovaries was demonstrated. it seems plausible that the damage to the ovaries would be cumulative over time, thereby shortening functional longevity of the queen. since varroa virus titres are higher and perhaps even more so in tf hives. this may explain why most beekeepers are experiencing not getting the longevity they once did from their queens.
    beekeeping since june 2010, +/- 20 hives, tf

  11. #291
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    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by gmcharlie View Post
    I actually took honey from about 100..... some were effectively 0 and some were over 100. if i took my best 4 only in my count like has been done at times then my average was 95..... we could call the rest "support hives"
    You could have moved honey from weaker hives onto stronger hives thereby boosting the "average" from even a smaller number of production hives.

    Beekeepers have been arguing about hive averages ever since who knows when. No one ever talks about the year end bottom line. Production averages are a distraction from that number which no one wishes to reveal.
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

  12. #292
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    Dec 1999
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    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    That's because the year end bottom line has all kinds of elements that play into it. One doesn't know what deductibles, depreciations, tax breaks, etc. that are done before the bottom line. Pounds per hive is pretty straight forward and each can calculate out how that works for them.
    Regards, Barry

  13. #293
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Fayetteville, Arkansas
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    5,013

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by jim lyon View Post
    From a treatment perspective, we do no treating until fall treatments...
    That's not a treatment-free perspective.


    Quote Originally Posted by rhaldridge View Post
    My assumption is that Tim gets tired of being called a liar constantly, so says outrageous stuff just to wind up his detractors. Works pretty good. I wish he wouldn't do it, because it undermines his message, but I understand the impulse.
    I understand the impulse, but you're right, he makes a mess of his message. And the swearing and name calling only makes it worse because you can't get by with that crap in any sort of moderated forum. I wind people up, a fact to which many may attest, but you won't see much name calling or swearing.

    I am more and more convinced that he's got a bit of creative accounting. I'll certainly admit to a form of it. What number am I supposed to divide by? I might start out with 20-30 in a given year but most are support hives for queen and nuc production. So do I divide by 25 or do I divide by the maximum number of hives in the year, ~50? Do I divide by the number at honey production time or after summer? After winter? Or do I just divide by the number of hives used for honey production?
    Solomon Parker, Parker Farms, ParkerFarms.biz
    11 Years Treatment-Free, ~25 Colony Baseline

  14. #294
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    Feb 2010
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    New York City, NY
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    4,046

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    After seeing what can happen with a new package, with similar bees, with a similar hive configuration, and with a fair understanding of Tim's concepts, I think it's possible that he can get honey yields within the range that he's claiming with the flows/forage available to him.

    Even starting late, without the benefit of drawn frames, and without his flows, I saw evidence of what he was describing.

  15. #295
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
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    DuPage County, Illinois USA
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    9,183

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    What number am I supposed to divide by?
    Best explanation thus far.

    On the subject of averages, I often do not believe what I read any more. It is meaningless when a beekeeper with say 30 hives, gets 300 lb's total, but most hives made no surplus, only 5 did. So he counts his average as the average of the 5, ie, 60 lb's each, where the real average is 10 lb's per hive. A commercial beekeeper running 1000 hives, has to pay for and maintain all the equipment and work on all the hives. So he has to know what he is producing on average and would discover that by dividing his total crop by 1000. If some of them were not productive they would still be included in the average, his whole thousand hives is a unit that has to pay for itself and he survives by what the whole unit produces, minus expenses.
    http://www.beesource.com/forums/show...20#post1027320
    Regards, Barry

  16. #296
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    Feb 2006
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    Herrick, SD USA
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    That's not a treatment-free perspective.
    My point, Sol, is that in the context of the conversation (which was queen longevity and their rates of failure) that for the entirety of their first season my queens are never directly exposed to miticides. As I am sure you are aware many commonly used treatments, can result in queen loss in certain conditions. So yes, though I dont claim to be treatment free my observations about untreated first year queens is very much germane to the conversation.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  17. #297
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    Feb 2010
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    PLB just gave an interesting response to a question by Mark.

    Miticides decrease sperm viability which may lead to the high rate of queen supercedure/failure.

    50% drone sperm viability from miticide treated hives. 90% drone sperm viability from hives without miticides.

    I think it not only demonstrates why Tim can get the bees to fill those hives with workers, it also illustrates an advantage of TF beekeeping over other methods. Perhaps the no sugar, 'well fed' bees, approach could add to the number of workers as well.
    Last edited by WLC; 12-09-2013 at 06:53 PM.

  18. #298
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    Feb 2006
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    Herrick, SD USA
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    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Quote Originally Posted by Solomon Parker View Post
    What number am I supposed to divide by? I might start out with 20-30 in a given year but most are support hives for queen and nuc production. So do I divide by 25 or do I divide by the maximum number of hives in the year, ~50? Do I divide by the number at honey production time or after summer? After winter? Or do I just divide by the number of hives used for honey production?
    Personally? I think it should be income less expenses then divide that number by the hours you invested and decide if its time well spent from a strict economic standpoint. Forget all this pounds per hive business which is easily skewed by any number of different ways of calculation. I am kind of with Mark on this. The only thing that really matters from an economic standpoint is your bottom line at the end of the year. It makes little difference whether it came from honey, wax, pollination, nuc or queen sales.
    "People will generally accept facts as truth only if the facts agree with what they already believe."- Andy Rooney

  19. #299
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Fort Walton Beach, Florida
    Posts
    1,195

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    Good grief. There seems to be an awful lot of analysis in the absence of actual data going on here. I guess it must be fun, but it seems a little mean-spirited.

    You can contact some of the folks who have direct experience with Tim's methods, as I did here:

    http://www.indianahoney.org/blog/6624/bee%20biology

    Scroll down to the comments to see what I asked about.

    Also, Tim talks pretty freely about his stuff on his Facebook page, and there are lots of names there, if you want to check with them. He seems to be willing to answer questions, if posed in a polite manner. But he has to friend you, so... good luck!
    Ray--1 year, 7 hives, TF

  20. #300
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
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    Brasher Falls, NY, USA
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    24,438

    Default Re: Treatment Free - How long does it take?

    There are different ways to make money keeping bees. So if honey production is part of the income mix then income per hive is of more importance than pounds of honey per hive or production hive.

    Me, I take the highest number of viable colonies I had in one year, usually that's soon after apple pollination time, and keep that in mind until after the last pound of honey is measured. That's what I divide by. 580 colonies produced 450 buckets of honey at approx. 60lbs of honey per bucket. Equals 46.5 lbs honey per hive. If I did my math correctly.

    WLC, r u stalking me?
    Mark Berninghausen "Ships at a distance have every man's wish on board." Zora Neale Hurston

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