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Treatment Free - How long does it take?

67K views 377 replies 36 participants last post by  Oldtimer 
#1 ·
I'm preparing for a basic informational presentation on treatment options - including treatment free. I'm trying to present just the basic unvarnished facts to the best of my ability without spin one way or the other.

People who have achieved success doing treatment free usually seem to experience a period of relatively high losses before survival numbers get to the point where they can concentrate on much more than just keeping their apiaries viable.

Assuming that you start out (and continue) with bees that have decent genetic potential, have enough colonies for the project to be viable, and propagate from the survivors - how long does it take before the apiary stops struggling to survive and can actually become productive?

Another related question is this - other than finding and catching your own, are there any reliable sources for people to buy those kinds of bees?

This is a serious question, and I believe that there is a serious answer out there - probably several.

Thanks for your help.
 
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#84 ·
Oldtimer, Barry - thanks that means a lot.

JWChestnut - the truth is I didn't even think of IPM, and it should be mentioned if only in the footnotes. But this was for an oral presentation mostly aimed at newer beekeepers many of whom have not decided how to deal with mites because they are confused by the options. For the ones who still have healthy hives I was hoping to motivate them to decide what to do and take action during the broodless period if they decided to treat. If they decide to go treatment free that's fine too, but they need to be aware of the implications of that decision. IPM Might be a bit advanced for the target audience in this particular case, and at this time.

Just curious though, can you really do monitoring and assessments for ipm when you are dealing with the number of hives needed to make a living? It seems very labor intensive.
 
#85 ·
Just curious though, can you really do monitoring and assessments for ipm when you are dealing with the number of hives needed to make a living? It seems very labor intensive.
My opinion is no, with a lot of hives you have to make blanket judgments and if you are a honey producer there are precious few treatment windows per year.....given the fact that we are on the tf forum perhaps I have said too much already. :D
 
#86 ·
#87 ·
Rader - As Randy Oliver said in his article it is for informational purposes - but I will probably add your link. Although I will say that if it is the case that we are being prevented from lawfully using a relatively safe effective and certainly affordable treatment while being offered expensive, possibly dangerous, probably ineffective alternatives - for any reason - that is the kind of situation which causes law abiding people to lose respect for and break the law - and yet not lose sleep other than by worrying about what is wrong with our country. Long sentence, off subject, wrong forum - just saying.
 
#89 ·
I agree David. The situation with OA is likely the way it is because nobody has figured out how to make enough money to take OA through the registration/testing process and still make a healthy profit. The registration process really has little to do with actual safe and effective miticides, its all about paperwork and making sure the money flows into the "right" pockets.
 
#91 ·
:eek:t:
I think most of us - us being all U.S. Citizens - mostly agree about this kind of thing. BTW, since Thymol is also an EPA registered Pesticide, I guess all of those concoctions which contain it or EO of thyme are also outlawed.

But it's only a guess, because really smart, really well educated people argue before the supreme court all the time to decide what the law really means. Often as not the decision is split 5-4 which kind of indicates that even the Justices aren't all that sure what is and is not legal. I suspect it has to do with the attorneys haircut as much as anything.

So often the de facto law comes down to what and how it is enforced, and since there isn't an Oil of Thyme task force (that we know of) we are probably all safe - and should go ahead and assume that it's OK, and continue to use it if we choose. For now.:D

It's kind of absurd if you think about it.
:eek:t:
 
#92 ·
I've been treatment free since 2005. I got treatment free by finding one exceptional queen in a feral swarm that showed high levels of mite tolerance. I purchased 10 queens from Purvis and used them to produce drones to mate with queens raised from my mite tolerant feral queen. I was NOT dealing with large numbers of colonies and have not had more than 20 colonies at any time since 1993.

In 2006, I deliberately pushed my colonies to swarm as much as possible. This was done by crowding them down to a single broodchamber in early spring. The purpose of the tactic was to push as many mite tolerant swarms into the area as possible so they would buffer the effects of any beekeepers on the treatment bandwagon. I consider this step to have been critical in maintaining my bees without treatments!!!!!

My bees were totally unproductive in 2007 because we had a freeze April 7th that wiped out most of the normal spring flowers. It was not something that I could fault the bees for. I have never seen such a late freeze before and hope to never see it again.

Since then, I have had normal production in my colonies every year from 2008 to 2013.

I have been splitting my bees and giving or selling colonies to other beekeepers in the area to increase the mite tolerant traits. One person now has 4 highly mite tolerant colonies at a location about 5 miles north of me. I have 2 more beginners who have requested colonies for next spring. I will build equipment this fall and hope to be able to sell or trade at least 10 more colonies.

To answer the question re how long to be productive and TF, by purchasing highly mite tolerant stock and using it to leverage the mite tolerance I found in a feral queen, I have had productive bees since 2006 which was the first year after going treatment free. I would emphasize, that I did NOT start from scratch. I had identified the mite tolerant feral queen in 2004 and I made full use of highly resistant queens from Purvis.

I might mention that the feral queen I used for mite tolerance was also a source of exceptional production genes. Her colony foraged effectively at temperatures in the 50's. My Italian and Buckfast colonies were comatose at the time. It took several years to pare down her single major defect, that was one of the hottest colonies I've ever kept successfully. Her offspring showed a lot of variation so I eliminated the hot colonies until today I can work my bees with nothing more than a smoker and a hive tool.
 
#99 ·
I've been treatment free since 2005. I got treatment free by finding one exceptional queen in a feral swarm that showed high levels of mite tolerance...

Since then, I have had normal production in my colonies every year from 2008 to 2013.
That really is outstanding - you really should consider rearing a few queens to try to spread the joy. To me for example.

I assume the answer is no since you didn't mention it, but just for the record do you use small cell?
 
#93 · (Edited)
dar, are you using survival as your measure of mite tolerance or are you looking at other metrics as well? what percentage winter losses (if any) are you averaging?

i also run about 20 tf colonies over here on sand mountain. i believe that i have mite tolerant colonies surviving in the woods around me. the only beekeepers i know of nearby are not treating.

i purchased my bees from a fellow north of fort payne who started his operation with feral cut outs from the area. he has a seventeen year track record off treatments. i am going into my fourth winter and have averaged 11% winter losses so far.

i grafted queens this year from my most productive colony (harvested five medium supers and left two for the bees). this colony also did not swarm this year, but just superceded instead.

i will be grafting again next season and making up nucs for sale.

would you be interested in swapping a queen or two next spring?
 
#95 ·
Squarepeg, I'll see if I can get enough queens to do a swap. It shouldn't be hard, I have a few colonies at Rainsville. How far are you from Dutton or Rosalie?

My measure of success is simple. At the end of the year, the colony must be alive and thriving. I never see evidence of mites whether as live mites on brood or white specks in cells. The bees have to build up healthy and fast in the spring. Winter losses have been less than 10% for the last 5 years. Most of all, they have to produce a decent crop of honey with minimal management on my part.

Oldtimer, it would be interesting to see how it goes, but some of my bees are within 20 miles of his location. I'm sure they will work as well for him as they do for me. I might also mention that the exceptional queen I found in 2004 was from the Rainsville area. The level of mite tolerance in feral colonies around there is higher than average.
 
#96 ·
dar, i'm near section, going in the other direction from dutton.

i'm thrilled to hear that you have already found good genetics around here.

my reason for wanting to swap queens is the same as yours for bringing in the purvis, i.e. to mix up the genetics a little bit.

i'll send you a pm with my cell #, let me know the next time you're in the neighborhood. i'll buy you a coffee (or a beer) and perhaps we can visit each other's yards.
 
#100 ·
David, yes my bees are on small cell though I don't credit that with much of an effect on the mites. Small cell just happens to fit in very well with running 11 frames in a brood chamber. I converted to small cell in 2005 the hard way with plain wax foundation. That was all that was available at the time. I got a LOT of burred up comb the first year, then the second year the bees began to adapt and started drawing very good combs.
 
#101 ·
>>Michael Bush - Immediate success on small cell foundation.
>Actually on fully drawn small cell comb (wax dipped PermaComb). Foundation is a different matter altogether.

That was merely a way to get them regressed instantly. If you have small cell (or natural comb < 4.9mm in the core) drawn comb the results are the same. But yes, wax foundation is different. However, the PF120s I've used were drawn perfectly and were almost as fast (they just had to draw it but it was right on the first try).
 
#102 ·
Immediate success on small cell foundation? I'm for that, going down in two steps is time consuming. I have fully drawn Dadant plastic frames, SC, but oddly with BC spacing. Is there a source of 4.9 plastic foundation that snaps into wooden frames? My success so far, taking five of my my twenty plus hives down to 4.9 has been fraught with failure, largely my fault, however I will continue and for many reasons, Varroa control being high on the list. My main interest however is secured on my firm belief that the bee in SC format is going to be a tougher bee with a stronger immune system. I can't believe Boudoux did this to us and that it hasn't been common knowledge. This experience has soured my perception of the scientific community.
 
#105 ·
I think plastic and honey production is not a good combination. I wonder what is the material, how is it tested? Does the supplier of the raw material know that this plastic for honeybee hive frames must stand acids (Varroa treatments) and high temperatures (renewal) for years and years? It is probably just approved to store food supplies(short time storage in room temperatures). But I suppose you in US don´t hustle with such details...
 
#106 · (Edited)
> this plastic for honeybee hive frames must stand acids (Varroa treatments) and high temperatures
>
But I suppose you in US don´t hustle with such details...

Rarely does life offer us perfect choices. Plastic may not be perfect, but neither is using wax foundation. Beeswax used in commercially available foundation comes from older hives, and reflects treatments/chemicals applied to those hives. A study of that topic:
Almost all comb and foundation wax samples (98%) were contaminated with up to 204 and 94 ppm, respectively, of fluvalinate and coumaphos, and lower amounts of amitraz degradates and chlorothalonil, with an average of 6 pesticide detections per sample and a high of 39.

Read the rest here:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0009754
That study used foundation samples purchased in North America. Finland may have different issues.

This page from a Swiss researcher suggests that commercial beeswax is contaminated worldwide:
http://www.bee-hexagon.net/files/file/fileE/Wax/WaxBook2.pdf

.
 
#107 ·
> this plastic for honeybee hive frames must stand acids (Varroa treatments) and high temperatures
>
But I suppose you in US don´t hustle with such details...

Rarely does life offer us perfect choices. Plastic may not be perfect, but neither is using wax foundation. Beeswax used in commercially available foundation comes from older hives, and reflects treatments/chemicals applied to those hives. A study of that topic:

Thats why I circulate my own wax and don´t treat.
 
#109 ·
As far as I know, there is one other beekeeper. He is cutting drone brood regularly (5-6 hole Langstroth frames/hive/summer) and he is using small cells. (I have normal cells and do not cut drone brood).

My work has been documented in Internet: www.saunalahti.fi/lunden/varroakertomus.htm All ups and downs are there. At the moment all hives seem normal and healthy, although they are smaller compared to what they used to be 12 years ago.
There has been lots of curiosity towards my work, some resistance too, but I suppose a big part of beekeepers do not care or believe it is possible.

In the beginning I actually thought, that our long winter(no flying for 6 months) is a helping factor, because about 40% of the mites (and almost the same amount of bees?) dye from each hive. But in reality, the reproduction power in summer is so high, that I´m not sure if long winter offers any help. We have a huge AFB problem in Finland and viruses kill hives in some areas even if there are no mites.
 
#111 ·
>>Almost all comb and foundation wax samples (98%) were contaminated with up to 204 and 94 ppm, respectively, of fluvalinate and coumaphos, and lower amounts of amitraz degradates and chlorothalonil, with an average of 6 pesticide detections per sample and a high of 39.

>That study used foundation samples purchased in North America. Finland may have different issues.

Since the use of amitraz, fluvalinate, coumaphos, terramycin, fumidil and tylosin are all illegal in the EU, Australia, New Zealand and a large part of the rest of the world, it would probably be different...
 
#112 ·
There does appear to be a global marketplace for beeswax. For instance, this report on "Honey and Other Bee Products in the European Union" has this regarding EU wax imports from China:

Beeswax imports also fluctuated in the period 2003-2007. Due to a decline in beekeeping after the EU ban on Chinese honey, supplies from China were low at the beginning of the review period. Since then, tight supplies from China have led to strong price increases and the future of this market is uncertain, as imports of beeswax are erratic and the market is saturated.

http://www.fepat.org.ar/files/eventos/759630.pdf
 
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