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Thread: 2.1 syrup

  1. #1
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    Default 2.1 syrup

    Why is my 2.1 syrup turning back into sugar in the feeders?
    Plus I made some last night and it's just one big pot of hard candy now .
    What am I doing wrong. It's always something.
    Thank you.
    Say hello to the bad guy!
    year five==== 31 hives==== T{OAV}

  2. #2
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    Cedar Hill, TN
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    Default Re: 2.1 syrup

    A little more details on how your making it would help diagonis what is going on. It sounds like your not using enough water to the amount of sugar.

    1 to 1 syrup is 1 lb sugar to 1 lb water (2 cups)
    2 to 1 syrup is 2 lb sugar to 1 lb water (2 cups)

    I have 10 Nucs I'm feeding, so I'm making up several batches in a row using.
    I make 2:1 and then if I need 1:1, I add an equal amount of water at the time of use.

    I dislike making the syrup because I seem to always get it on the kitchen floor so usually make up 100 lbs of sugar and then water bath (can) it for 10 minutes like you would a jelly, this way if I don't use it right away it keeps till I need it.
    If I come in from work 10 minutes before dark and need syrup it is ready.


    2:1

    10 lbs sugar to 10 cups water

    How I do it is in a large stock pot I put
    10 cups water, bring it to a rapid boil, turn heat OFF at this point
    add 5 lbs sugar stir till dissolved (clear) and then add the last 5 lbs
    you'll have to stir for a several minutes to get the last additon to fully dissolve.
    You'll know that all the sugar is disolved when the solution turns clear not cloudy.


    I've learned that if it is still cloudy then the sugar isn't totally disolved and it will start to re-crystalize when it cools, how fast depends on how many crystals were left.
    Last edited by SpeckledPup; 10-10-2013 at 06:24 AM.
    Becky aka Turnersville Bees, Member of TN Beekeepers,
    President of CMCBA, Secretary of CCBA

  3. #3
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    Polk County, Tennessee, USA
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    Default Re: 2.1 syrup

    Basically you need more heat and more stirring.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: 2.1 syrup

    What I did was take a big stock pot and put 1/3d water got it at a full boil and added 1/3 sugar and brought it to a boil again then I added another 1/3 sugar and boiled again . It would not turn clear again just cloudy I know I have one big mess right now .
    Could it be my stove is not getting the syrup hot enough ?
    I think it's time for a new stove .
    Say hello to the bad guy!
    year five==== 31 hives==== T{OAV}

  5. #5
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    Charles City, VA
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    Default Re: 2.1 syrup

    I think you are getting it to hot. I would only heat the water once

  6. #6
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    Default Re: 2.1 syrup

    I use just hot tap water for 1 to 1 but for 2 to one I bring water to a boil then turn of the heat. I use that water to add to the sugar. So just short of boiling and cooling fairly fast. There is some crystallization around the lid of the jar etc but nothing near turning solid.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: 2.1 syrup

    Quote Originally Posted by GLOCK View Post
    I think it's time for a new stove .
    Shouldnt be a hard sell to the wife.

    Mine is cloudy when I pull if off, but later clears up when it cools. If its crystalizing in the feeders, the sugar isnt dissolving completely.

  8. #8
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    Algoma dr. Ontario, Canada
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    Default Re: 2.1 syrup

    I think perhaps you are not getting the sugar inverted. That is helped by lowering the PH and holding at an elevated temperature for a period of time. You do have to take care not to scorch the sugar as that creates compounds not good for bees. I fed over 300 pounds of sugar to hives and the lack of crystallization was really apparent in ones using perforated openings. If you dont get some inversion effect those are a real problem for a 2 to 1 syrup.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: 2.1 syrup

    I usually make 5:3 (25 pounds sugar and 15 pounds water). The sugar dissolves easier than in the 2:1. Also, the ending product fits nicely in a 5 gallon bucket and I use my canning stockpot to make it.

    I boil the water first and once it starts boiling I add the sugar slowly while stirring. I discovered that if you add the sugar slower, while stirring, it dissolves a lot easier without a big pile of sugar on the bottom. I leave the heat on until the syrup clears.

    Also, you might have hard water that prevents the mixture from working properly.

  10. #10
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    Johnson County, Indiana, USA
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    Default Re: 2.1 syrup

    Just in case you need ANOTHER opinion, I suspect you're adding too much sugar, and have a much higher than 2:1 ratio. From your description above:

    What I did was take a big stock pot and put 1/3d water got it at a full boil and added 1/3 sugar and brought it to a boil again then I added another 1/3 sugar and boiled again

    I would be careful to add the ingredients by weight, not by volume. It doesn't have to be exact, but think of each quart of water as 2 pounds. If you're going to use 10 lbs of sugar, then you need 5 lbs of water, or 2 1/2 quarts. Heat until all sugar is dissolved, which is when it turns clear.
    Once the bee is inside, Mr. Veil is no longer your friend.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: 2.1 syrup

    with hard water 2:1 may not be stable especially as temperatures get colder. there is a lot more variation in tap water chemistry than most realize... I have had to back off to about 5:3 to stop unwanted crystalization... with thinner syrup be sure the bees have ventilation to thin it down and reduce entrance size to limit robbing.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: 2.1 syrup

    boiling .... adding sugar .... back to boil .... adding more sugar ..... boil again. Every time you add sugar means the boiling point increases. IMO you are overheating the sugar and you are making candy. I have not had any problems with bringing water to a rolling boil...... take it off the stove.....and slowly add the sugar while stiring. Leave it to cool down to room temperature.
    People don't like it when you make them think. People like it when you make them think they are thinking

  13. #13
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    Default Re: 2.1 syrup

    Sounds like its 5:1 sugar and you're making candy
    Any sugar that does not get dissolved in boiled water is more than 2:1

    Keep it simple use hot/warm water from the tap and make 5:3

  14. #14
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    Default Re: 2.1 syrup

    Quote Originally Posted by GLOCK View Post
    Why is my 2.1 syrup turning back into sugar in the feeders?
    Plus I made some last night and it's just one big pot of hard candy now .
    What am I doing wrong. It's always something.
    Thank you.
    I could not get exactly 2:1 to stay in solution. I have stopped "banging my head against the wall" and now measure out 20 to 12 cups of sugar to water into a deep sauce pan. I stick it on the stove on HIGH and stir continuously for about 4-5 minutes. It's not exactly 2:1, but the bees are not complaining.

    Phil

  15. #15
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    Default Re: 2.1 syrup

    In Charles Albert Browne's Handbook of Sugar Analysis: a practical and descriptive treatise for the use in research, technical and control laboratories, he states that at room temperature (20 C, 68 F), 204 grams of sucrose are soluble in 100 cc of water.

    So at room temperature, anything greater than a 67.09% sugar-syrup will be super saturated and the excess sugar will precipatate out of solution and crystalize.

    A 2:1 syrup is 66.67%, and if you boil away too much water while making syrup like the OP, you'll have less water and the concentration of your syrup will be higher. Crystalization can occur.

    Add to that fact that as the temperature drops BELOW room temperature - like it does outside at night, the solubility of sucrose in water DECREASES.

    A 5:3 sugar syrup is 62.5% sugar and will NOT crystalize even at the freezing point of water (32 F, 0 C).

    Tony P.
    There must be a harder way to do that... let me find it for you.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: 2.1 syrup

    Quote Originally Posted by GLOCK View Post
    What I did was take a big stock pot and put 1/3d water got it at a full boil and added 1/3 sugar and brought it to a boil again then I added another 1/3 sugar and boiled again . It
    I think it's time for a new stove .
    I think what you're doing is creating a super saturated solution. Probably getting more sugar into the solution then it can hold as it cools. This is how you make rock candy.

    I don't heat mine up other then using hot water. It's difficult to get to 2:1, but I'm not sure that 1.8:1 is going to make very much difference compared to 2:1 and the ease of making it is well worth it.

    I use hot tap water and add pretty much 2:1 and stir it up. Let it sit, stir it up. If I let it sit for a couple hours or so it typically becomes clear.

    ~Matt

  17. #17
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    Default Re: 2.1 syrup

    Ok here is the deal I feel like a fool . I own a restaurant so I took my pot of sugar rock to work to day and while I was at work the wife cleaned all the gas burners and went over the whole stove. I don't think she wanted me buying a new stove any way she made me 2.1 syrup and all she did was boil the water and added sugar and it turned out perfect me I was at the shop boiling my syrup till it turned brown now it is in the dumpster. She made half as much as me I think I was making to much at one time any way problem solved thanks to the wife . You know she always right and i'm the beekeeper! you would think I would know how to make syrup .
    Say hello to the bad guy!
    year five==== 31 hives==== T{OAV}

  18. #18
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    Default Re: 2.1 syrup

    Quote Originally Posted by GLOCK View Post
    You know she always right and i'm the beekeeper!
    Lol, could have told you that

  19. #19
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    Default Re: 2.1 syrup

    There's no need to boil the water, and good reasons not to boil the syrup...

    I suspect that you are losing too much water through evaporation. Do you use a lid on the pot?

    You don't need to invert the syrup but some adjust the ph.

    I have been mixing 5:3 for a while now using 25 lbs of sugar to 7 1/2 quarts (15 pints) of water. I stopped heating the syrup until it goes clear; there's no need to. When I no longer hear/feel grains of sugar when stirring I cover the pot and turn off the heat.

    I add 3.5 grams of ascorbic acid to the water before adding the sugar.

    The 5:3 mixture is much easier to make and it doesn't crystallize in the feeders.
    BeeCurious
    Trying to think inside the box...

  20. #20
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    Default Re: 2.1 syrup

    I have had very good success following Michael Palmer's method of making 2:1 syrup. Fill the container you are going to make the syrup in about 2/3 with sugar, draw a line there, add hot water and stir, add more hot water until the level reaches the line, you are done.

    You don't have to worry about pounds of this and pounds of that.

    In the end it is just sugar water, don't overthink it.

    Tom

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