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Thread: Tim Ives Method

  1. #81
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    In my climate a hive can winter quite well in a single brood chamber, and needs little winter stores as the eucalyptus flow starts around Halloween. Leaving two deeps of stores on would just be exposing a 120 lb crop to moisture and fermentation. I doubt bees in early spring would want to pass through it to get up to empty supers, they would have been clogging the brood chamber with honey and swarm. So how do I adapt the Ives method for my area? Upper entrances above the two deeps filled with 120lbs of honey?

  2. #82
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel Y View Post
    How many yards do you have that cannot produce 8 supers of honey? If there is nectar available for a multiple of hives to produce that honey. why woudl it not be available for a single large hive?
    I could be cruelly snarky about that piece of misapprehension, but I won't. An apiary with 25 hives producing 2 boxes each does not support a mythical one hive with 50 supers.

    Nectar is a resource in temporary super-abundance. That is its evolutionary purpose to induce the pollinator to visits a particular flower in a field of competing pollination ready flowers of another species. It is the reward for loyalty, and flowers compete against each other to produce the most entrancing reward.
    However, the temporary super-abundance is replaced by dearth (especially in my Mediterranean Dry Summer climate). A hive population is the balance of ability to collect super-abundance and the necessity of maintaining a supportable population limit for times of dearth.

    This same failure to understand the dynamics of super-abundance is driving Conservation managers at parks to propose poisoning feral bees in the belief they will benefit native pollinators. Both natives and European bees are temporarily awash in more nectar and pollen than can be consumed, they are not competing against a limiting resource at that time.

  3. #83
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    I'm with the Englishman that thinks 7 supers is enough. Having experienced a couple towers, don't think it worth the risk and inconvenience. Working off of a ladder is not fun. We generated 2 such monsters by adding strength in late winter and checkerboarding. They each made 16 shallow supers in our short spring flow.

    In each case, we combined two modest colonies about march 1 to see what would happen. We regretted it later when adding supers got to the ladder stage. It was apparent that each of the combined hives, if left alone and CBed would have made about half that much independently. Went to a lot of extra trouble for no gain.

    By wintering in stocked triple deeps, Tim's bees get off to a running start with a larger cluster in late winter. It does not surprise me that he gets outrageous production. It would just not be worth it to me.

    Walt

  4. #84
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Quote Originally Posted by JWChesnut View Post
    I could be cruelly snarky about that piece of misapprehension, but I won't. An apiary with 25 hives producing 2 boxes each does not support a mythical one hive with 50 supers.

    Nectar is a resource in temporary super-abundance. That is its evolutionary purpose to induce the pollinator to visits a particular flower in a field of competing pollination ready flowers of another species. It is the reward for loyalty, and flowers compete against each other to produce the most entrancing reward.
    However, the temporary super-abundance is replaced by dearth (especially in my Mediterranean Dry Summer climate). A hive population is the balance of ability to collect super-abundance and the necessity of maintaining a supportable population limit for times of dearth.

    This same failure to understand the dynamics of super-abundance is driving Conservation managers at parks to propose poisoning feral bees in the belief they will benefit native pollinators. Both natives and European bees are temporarily awash in more nectar and pollen than can be consumed, they are not competing against a limiting resource at that time.
    There is nothing mythological about my comparison. You are the one that has introduced the idea that a single colony with 50 supers. I described a single colony with 8 supers which has in fact repeatedly been done. So are you saying that what others have not only reported is done on a regular basis is not in fact being done?

    In consideration of your Super Abundance theory. Assuming it is even correct, which I don't, how does that alter that it requires X number of bees foraging on X amount of nectar to produce X amount of honey? And whether those bees came from one colony or 4 is irrelevant. And in fact has been demonstrated repeatedly. I do wonder why you found it necessary to introduce Conservation Management to the conversation. I don't see how it applies.

    I have read a recent article by Randy Oliver that suggests the bees will drift toward a certain number of frames of bees regardless of the population going into winter. that number seems to be around 10 frames of bees. I am interested in knowing if any of those that have managed these huge colonies have seen this sort of effect in tier bees. How many fraems of bees do you go into winter with? and what do you see at the beginning of the build up?

    This at the very least indicates one limiting factor to how large a colony is profitable. It would also seem to indicate that number is around one deep of bees. Assuming Tim's method is one deep of bees and two deeps of honey it would seem to confirm that. If even larger hives produced ever increasing results why limit it to 3 deeps?

    What I am saying is I do see there is a limit. but just where is that limit? That it requires work is not so much of a concern when considering what can or cannot be done.

    Do I think a single colony can produce 50 supers of honey. Frankly I consider the suggestion ludicrous to the point of being worthy of nothing more than being ignored. care to share your views on something a little more realistic. how about realistic enough that it has in fact been accomplished by someone somewhere at some time. As I have done. I would settle for simply haven claimed to have been done. I don't recall anyone ever having claimed to produce 50 supers of honey from a single colony.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  5. #85
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Quote Originally Posted by odfrank View Post
    So how do I adapt the Ives method for my area?
    Pull the honey and put the boxes back on in the checkerboard fashion?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  6. #86
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Does Tim reverse the three deep brood boxes in the spring, when the first supers are added?

    Three deeps can certainly allow for a very strong spring colony, due to a wealth of provisions, but without reversing, the lower part of the brood portion of the hive is typically unused or underutilized (at least here in the Northeast).

  7. #87
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Jwg,
    The answer you are looking for can be found at this link http://talkingstick.me/bees/checker-boarding/ Look under the heading " My Checker Boarding "

    It is the website of a fellow BeeSource member who goes by the handle " BeeWrangler " , He runs three deeps and goes into detail of how he does it.
    Bill...in Southeast Ohio

  8. #88
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    So, if I overwinter 3 deeps, all I have to do is put the deep with the broodnest on the bottom, and then checkerboard the other two w/ full and empty drawn frames.

    I think Tim just breaks open the honey cap with a few drawn frames in the middle of the top deeps, depending on where the queen is laying.

    Would I checkerboard the supers as well w/ undrawn frames as per Tim?

    It's interesting to see BeeWrangler's view on swarm prevention.

  9. #89
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Quote Originally Posted by WWW View Post
    Jwg,
    The answer you are looking for can be found at this link http://talkingstick.me/bees/checker-boarding/ Look under the heading " My Checker Boarding "
    I get a kick out of this:
    When I checker board my hives:

    the middle box with the brood, goes on the bottom board.
    the empty frames from the bottom box are alternated with the full frames from the top box.
    two checker boarded boxes result.
    these two checker boarded boxes are set on top of the brood box.
    He says checker boarding does not involve the brood nest yet he is reversing and manipulating the whole hive. Huh??? And you are going to do this at the end of winter?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  10. #90
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Ace,
    From the same source of information.
    Timing
    Quote:
    Checker boarding is done early in the spring before the bees begin rapid broodnest expansion. And it must be done before they make any swarm preparations. After that, it’s too late to use checker boarding.
    End Quote:

    Not sure where you got the idea he did this in late summer.
    Stand for what you believe, even if you stand alone.

  11. #91
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    I've done some amazing things with not only checkerborading above the brood nest early spring with drawn comb/feed frames, but also during the flow with several supers of alternate nectar/ honey frames and new undrawn frames.

    Then after the flow, what do you do with this monster hive? Well, I break it up. I take ALL the drawn comb, honey and brood away, leaving only a new single deep with ONE frame of eggs & larva and the original queen, ( All the rest of the frames in this replacement box are new undrawn) let the foragers fly back to the original location to the new box and established queen. Feed the new 'shook swarm' of sorts well, and watch them draw out and rebuild the deep 10 frame box in one week. They draw out and fill a second deep in the next three weeks. This keeps the older foragers working after the flow instead of just 'hanging out'. After about a month, the older foragers perish and resulting hive is composed of only the original queen, young bees and new white wax. It's amazing. I am making the queen work hard too. It remains to be seen if this method is hard on her or not with no down time for the old gal. ( It takes 2-3, 25# bags of sugar to get 19 deep frames drawn out and filled) plus protein patties for the new brood of course. Costs me about $25.-$35. to get 19 deep frames drawn and filled. (Remember, this is after the flow when little or no natural feed is available)
    The honey, comb and brood I take away is broken up into nucs. Some of the capped honey is stored in the freezer until fall, then distributed to any hive or nuc from this manipulation that is needy. Works like a charm. In one month I have double the amount bees, lots of young bees and 19 new frames drawn and filled that would not have been otherwise. This works great with a hot hive too. You take away the grizzly bears cubs and carcass and she mellows out. Give those hot bees no brood or honey to defend or feed, give them a new a job and in one day they are no longer defensive. Those hot hives can be some of the best producers. No need to requeen, just redirect them to change their behavior.

    When I take basically the whole hive away, I let it sit for three days before making the nucs. The wild queen cells they make are easy to spot and remove. They are greedily receptive to a direct release virgin. Plus there is no additional loss of bees, as the foragers have already flown back to the old location. You make the nucs with the young bees and brood that is left. No chilled brood to worry about, because those remaining bees will stay put in the nuc.. During this three days, my queen cells hatch out in the incubator, ready for evaluation, marking and distribution.

    Now if you just kept this large original hive together and fed that much syrup, they'd just backfill the brood nest and swarm on you. You'd not get the new drawn frames and you'd lose half you bees. The timing of this method, I call 'Miracle Manipulation', can probably be done at any time you have a large hive with a large volume of bees. It would be a great swarm prevention technique. When you do it after the flow, you can store the capped honey for later distribution if there is no fall flow. By doing this after the flow, when a large hive typically is reducing it's bee volume and productivity, you increase you productivity tremendously, especially in a short season area. You effectivly give all the resulting nucs and hive a brood break-reducing the mite load naturally.
    Sure, you have to feed. But if you want to increase your numbers and get new frames drawn out, it is a very effective way to do it.

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Mille...56954971040510
    Last edited by Lauri; 10-11-2013 at 05:16 PM.

  12. #92
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Ace,
    there is no DISRUPTION of the broodnest. Work goes on in the broodnest without disturbance - maybe even during the manipulation. The feature of the manipulation that doesn't get much attention is the fact that broodnest expansion is accellerated by the manip. Nectar is stored in the interleaved empty comb and has less food value than honey. With less honey to consume for expansion, brood volume/population growth is speeded up. More bees equals more honey in the supers.

    Growth rate is only importent if you recognize there is a point in the spring season where all colonies in a given area stop expansion and start brood volume reduction. We call that point Reproductive Swarm Cut Off.

    Walt
    Last edited by wcubed; 10-11-2013 at 11:01 AM. Reason: addition

  13. #93
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post
    And you are going to do this at the end of winter?
    And where did you get late summer from what I said?
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  14. #94
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Quote Originally Posted by wcubed View Post
    Ace,
    there is no DISRUPTION of the broodnest. Work goes on in the broodnest without disturbance - maybe even during the manipulation.
    Walt, I know that is your intention but the person I quoted (beewrangler) had a three deep hive, reverses the bottom and middle deep and then checkerboards the middle and top deep.

    I can't say what happens in Tennessee with three deeps but I do know in Utica, NY the bees will go up and contrary to what you think they will span multiple boxes. They are not going to stay in the box they were in when you put them away in the fall. So if you are going to pick a date that is 8 weeks before the start of a spring flow and start reversing boxes and checker boarding you most certainly are disrupting the broodnest in Utica, NY.

    I split hives a month before the flow and was told I was crazy, all my bees will die. When I split them they were in the top three boxes (mediums). They all didn't die and none of them swarmed. The only hive I have had swarm on me so far is the one that I did nothing to and it went gag busters and I ran out of equipment in June. And it is still not dead. Maybe next spring.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  15. #95
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Wow, thanks folks, what a great thread this has turned into!

    So enjoying reading the excellent ideas plus the deep understanding so many people have of their bees.
    44 years, been commercial, outfits up to 4000 hives, now 120 hives and 200 nucs as a hobby, selling bees. T (mostly).

  16. #96
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post

    I can't say what happens in Tennessee with three deeps but I do know in Utica, NY the bees will go up and contrary to what you think they will span multiple boxes. They are not going to stay in the box they were in when you put them away in the fall. So if you are going to pick a date that is 8 weeks before the start of a spring flow and start reversing boxes and checker boarding you most certainly are disrupting the broodnest in Utica, NY.
    ace is correct on this one folks. not only that but normally 8 weeks b/4 the spring flows there is so much snow and or mud on the ground you can't get equipment into your yards.
    mike syracuse ny
    I went to bed mean, and woke up meaner. Marshal Dillon

  17. #97
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Quote Originally Posted by Acebird View Post

    I split hives a month before the flow and was told I was crazy, all my bees will die. When I split them they were in the top three boxes (mediums). They all didn't die and none of them swarmed. The only hive I have had swarm on me so far is the one that I did nothing to and it went gag busters and I ran out of equipment in June. And it is still not dead. Maybe next spring.
    Ace, Raise their own or purchased queens?
    4 yrs, Peak 14, back to zip, T lite; godfather to brother's 3.

  18. #98
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Raise their own. I have never purchased a queen or introduced one into a hive.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

  19. #99
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    Very early in the classic queen schedule. In terms of plants, did you split at maples and before dandelions?
    4 yrs, Peak 14, back to zip, T lite; godfather to brother's 3.

  20. #100
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    Default Re: Tim Ives Method

    April 13 when I saw the first dandelion.
    Brian Cardinal
    Zone 5a, Practicing non-intervention beekeeping

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